iinitial english version - radio-interview-2018 - absmagazine interview about bitreich and gopher transcription files Err bitreich.org 70 hgit clone git://bitreich.org/radio-interview-2018 URL:git://bitreich.org/radio-interview-2018 bitreich.org 70 1Log /scm/radio-interview-2018/log.gph bitreich.org 70 1Files /scm/radio-interview-2018/files.gph bitreich.org 70 1Refs /scm/radio-interview-2018/refs.gph bitreich.org 70 1Tags /scm/radio-interview-2018/tag bitreich.org 70 1README /scm/radio-interview-2018/file/README.gph bitreich.org 70 1LICENSE /scm/radio-interview-2018/file/LICENSE.gph bitreich.org 70 i--- Err bitreich.org 70 1commit 7a1542bbbf0897fe8bc65bb4eb8aa76b4856907d /scm/radio-interview-2018/commit/7a1542bbbf0897fe8bc65bb4eb8aa76b4856907d.gph bitreich.org 70 1parent 2fa37ee45292f9c07c94692f3ef46f5622a3f5cf /scm/radio-interview-2018/commit/2fa37ee45292f9c07c94692f3ef46f5622a3f5cf.gph bitreich.org 70 hAuthor: Christian Kellermann URL:mailto:ckeen@pestilenz.org bitreich.org 70 iDate: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:24:53 +0200 Err bitreich.org 70 i Err bitreich.org 70 iinitial english version Err bitreich.org 70 i Err bitreich.org 70 iDiffstat: Err bitreich.org 70 i A english.txt | 686 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Err bitreich.org 70 i Err bitreich.org 70 i1 file changed, 686 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) Err bitreich.org 70 i--- Err bitreich.org 70 1diff --git a/english.txt b/english.txt /scm/radio-interview-2018/file/english.txt.gph bitreich.org 70 i@@ -0,0 +1,686 @@ Err bitreich.org 70 i+[intro music] Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+Michael(M): Here's the ABS Magazin - "Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales" Err bitreich.org 70 i+- Your magazine about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt Err bitreich.org 70 i+citizen radio. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+Nice to have you all here! Thanks for listening! We have got a new episode Err bitreich.org 70 i+for you, exciting things from the realm of communication technology. Err bitreich.org 70 i+We want to talk specifically about the internet... No, we do not want to Err bitreich.org 70 i+talk about the internet, neither do we want to talk about the dark net Err bitreich.org 70 i+today, but something even more obscure: Today will be about 'gopherspace'. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+'Gopher' is a protocol, which has been introduced a bit earlier than Err bitreich.org 70 i+the world wide web. But it has faded a bit into obscurity. A protocol, Err bitreich.org 70 i+which might have to be said, is the way how computers talk to each Err bitreich.org 70 i+other, how they exchange their data. You may have heard about the HTTP Err bitreich.org 70 i+protocol. You are using this when typing an URL into your brower. Or Err bitreich.org 70 i+there is a protocol handling the exchange of E-Mails. And there's the Err bitreich.org 70 i+'gopher' protocol. Which is interesting in particular as it is simple Err bitreich.org 70 i+and similar to the web, such as: Gopher server provide text and provide Err bitreich.org 70 i+links. What they do not provide are pictures, additional features, Err bitreich.org 70 i+Javascript or other complicated things. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+This restriction providing test and links does also mean, that you can Err bitreich.org 70 i+work very fast with it, pages do load super fast. And there are people Err bitreich.org 70 i+saying that the web is too bloated, there's too much advertising, to Err bitreich.org 70 i+much nick-nack. It is getting more and more difficult to get to the real Err bitreich.org 70 i+information on a site. Under these circumstance it is to the point to Err bitreich.org 70 i+have a closer look at the gopher protocol. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+We have talked to someone, who's knowledgable in this field. There Err bitreich.org 70 i+is a group of people who will hold a conference soon, to discuss the Err bitreich.org 70 i+future of the gopher protocol and how to build a real, interesting, Err bitreich.org 70 i+alternative to the world wide web. But now we will have a little bit Err bitreich.org 70 i+of music: Mrs. Beep with 'The spring is comming' a little bit of 8bit Err bitreich.org 70 i+music. After that we will talk with Christoph Lohmann, who will tell us Err bitreich.org 70 i+something about the gopher protocol. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+[...music cut out...] Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+Yes, now we have Christop here. He is a bit of a computer nerd, a Err bitreich.org 70 i+hobbyist, who is tinkering with software, hardware, programming and Err bitreich.org 70 i+protocols -- everything that's computer related and how they communicate. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Hello Christoph! Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+Christoph(C): Greetings Michael, here's Christoph! Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: I have read that you are running a project called 'bitreich'. This Err bitreich.org 70 i+project is using some protocols that aren't known widely. But what's Err bitreich.org 70 i+this project about? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: bitreich's goal si to create simple software. This includes simple Err bitreich.org 70 i+protocols like gopher. Simple principles, software that's fun to use. Our Err bitreich.org 70 i+goals are stated on the website or better the gopherhole. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Yes... Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There are.. Well, we wanted to talk about gopher. It's about replacing Err bitreich.org 70 i+big complex thingswith simple stuff which you can even implement yourself. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Gopher does translate as 'Maulwurf' (german) right? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes it does, it is derived from the gopher mascott of the MIT, Err bitreich.org 70 i+a university in the US. Also it is a pun on 'to go for'. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: This protocol has existed for quite a long time now, probably earlier Err bitreich.org 70 i+than the world wide web? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It has been developed in 1991, where the goal has been to connect Err bitreich.org 70 i+different databases at MIT with a hierarchical protocol. It has been Err bitreich.org 70 i+surpassed by the web sadly, which has been picked up faster, to put Err bitreich.org 70 i+it simply. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: How do the web and gopher differ? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: One has to differentiate between the data transport and display. In Err bitreich.org 70 i+the web there's HTTP for transport, then HTML for displaying the web Err bitreich.org 70 i+page in my browser. In gopher I have one protocol that already defines Err bitreich.org 70 i+simple menus. I know exactly that an item is a link and what will happen, Err bitreich.org 70 i+when I click on it. They are already defined in the protocol. Which Err bitreich.org 70 i+means the structure is more strict. As opposed to the web. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So like, when I am on a website often I have to relearn the navigation Err bitreich.org 70 i+and where to find things... Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's another issue on the web. There are even languages and Err bitreich.org 70 i+mechanisms, that can hide this from you. And a 'link' nowadays does not Err bitreich.org 70 i+mean 'go to this website' anymore. That's part of the problem. In gopher Err bitreich.org 70 i+you have this simplified, there's a link pointing to somewhere and I Err bitreich.org 70 i+just follow that. On the end of the link there may be another menu and Err bitreich.org 70 i+so on forming a tree of information for me to browse. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: If I understood you correctly, the display of data in gopher is mostly Err bitreich.org 70 i+text based? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's how it has been defined, yes. It's all about text. Images Err bitreich.org 70 i+have been added to it, but back in the days there have been all these Err bitreich.org 70 i+terminals with these old screens only capable of displaying text. But Err bitreich.org 70 i+it's about text, it's about a simple way to exchange information. And Err bitreich.org 70 i+that's pure text. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Or two people talk to each other, they also can exchange ideas or Err bitreich.org 70 i+information that way. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yeah, text is even more simple. If you take this further, there's for Err bitreich.org 70 i+example linux, which listeners may have heard about. That's about how I Err bitreich.org 70 i+can do text processing on the command line. With images you'll have to Err bitreich.org 70 i+deal with more complex algorithms and that's not as easy to use. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Hearing all this I think this is also about using simple programs Err bitreich.org 70 i+that use less resources? If I transfer a text file it is probably much Err bitreich.org 70 i+smaller than an Image or a video file. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, that's right. I can tell a story where I have needed this Err bitreich.org 70 i+badly: In Bhutan in south asia, north of India, where it's all about Err bitreich.org 70 i+the happyness of people, not like here… They have got a GSM Network Err bitreich.org 70 i+only. There has been a blackout and there has been only this slow data Err bitreich.org 70 i+network. But I have successfully retrieved my needed information via Err bitreich.org 70 i+gopher. It does not need a lot of resources. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So it is a protocol that's interesting for areas that are less Err bitreich.org 70 i+developed or where the aren't so many resources available? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, gopher saves resources, but over all, since the web's problem is Err bitreich.org 70 i+illustrated with youtube: Someone reads a text in a video which is served Err bitreich.org 70 i+in HD and viewed on a 4k monitor. I could have sent out the text instead! Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So the approach is this: Here is a protocol and programs, allowing to Err bitreich.org 70 i+transfer information efficiently and fast. Sometimes as much information Err bitreich.org 70 i+as in a read out video. Is this a new trend? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Gopher has been dormant for a long time, since the web has gotten Err bitreich.org 70 i+popular. The current developments are that smart phones are getting Err bitreich.org 70 i+more powerful with more CPU cores on one hand but the systems get Err bitreich.org 70 i+slower more and more on the other hand. This prompted a lot of people Err bitreich.org 70 i+to think about alternatives. Also among experts who know about the web's Err bitreich.org 70 i+complexity. Gopher is a part of this alternative. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So there's a movement that strives for less complexity and resource Err bitreich.org 70 i+usage? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, it's about the internet, not only the web. There's a lot more Err bitreich.org 70 i+besides the web. Bitreich is the part where software shall become simpler, Err bitreich.org 70 i+since that's all connected. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: In your bitreich software development you write programs, that you Err bitreich.org 70 i+use for yourself or because they are so simple to use them yourself...? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It's about the command line in bitreich, for experienced users. The Err bitreich.org 70 i+graphical user interfaces need a lot of resources. Gopher is the part Err bitreich.org 70 i+for the end user. For developers it's about having nice command line Err bitreich.org 70 i+tools that are fun to use. That's our goal. And that's achievable through Err bitreich.org 70 i+simplicity only. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Are modern tools too complicated with their graphical interfaces? I Err bitreich.org 70 i+that really taking out the fun? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Well, in the old days you'd have opened a text editor, which used up Err bitreich.org 70 i+200 kilobyte of RAM. Today when you open up an editor it will load a Err bitreich.org 70 i+webbroser in the background, this webbrowser will load javascript and Err bitreich.org 70 i+this all uses up to several gigabytes of your RAM. And then this all Err bitreich.org 70 i+has to display your source file. That's the current state of affairs! Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: When you say you want to find new ways with bitreich project, to use Err bitreich.org 70 i+less resources. Does it work? What are your experiences? Is it really Err bitreich.org 70 i+more fun than viewing smooth videos on YouTube? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I can see that I won't burn my upper legs when using gopher Err bitreich.org 70 i+as opposed to viewing a website, where my laptop fan goes on and Err bitreich.org 70 i+everything. Currently there are about 300 gopher servers, so we are Err bitreich.org 70 i+a small fraction on the net. The whole web currently uses ~2% of the Err bitreich.org 70 i+global electricity, sometimes even more… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: But one needs to have a bit of a background to use all this? If I Err bitreich.org 70 i+imagine how easy it is today for average smartphone user to surf the Err bitreich.org 70 i+web or go into a chat with other people exchanging text messages. You Err bitreich.org 70 i+can visit an app store and will find ready made software. One click I'll Err bitreich.org 70 i+get it installed. If I want to use gopher that's not so easy is it? Or Err bitreich.org 70 i+a program to chat with others? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There are different layers here. First you start by visiting Err bitreich.org 70 i+gopherproject.org and if you are not using a gopher client you will Err bitreich.org 70 i+be redirected to a 'web to gopher converter'. You'll be able to browse Err bitreich.org 70 i+gopher sites in your webbrowser. And that's the entry point where you Err bitreich.org 70 i+will get to further gates. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So it's a gateway that I can use with a normal browser that does not Err bitreich.org 70 i+speak gopher and still be able to browse gopher sites? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There are also plugins for webbrowsers, at least firefox and Err bitreich.org 70 i+chromium. One of the problems is that currently there has been a change Err bitreich.org 70 i+in plugins for these so there might be incompatiblilities. There are Err bitreich.org 70 i+many more clients listed on gopherproject.org. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: What about chat? I know there was a protocol that has been in use a Err bitreich.org 70 i+lot: IRC - Internet relay chat. That's not as popular today is it? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It is popular among software developers, because every open source Err bitreich.org 70 i+project has their own channel. That's the easiest way to talk to Err bitreich.org 70 i+developers and users. There are web clients, mobile clients, command Err bitreich.org 70 i+line clients. IRC is implemented almost everywhere. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: That's capable of doing the things you can do with a messenger on Err bitreich.org 70 i+the smartphone? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It could but does not want to? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Really? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I do have the possibility to share, say a video, in whatsapp or Err bitreich.org 70 i+images. You do not want this on IRC, it is a simple protocol. It's about Err bitreich.org 70 i+sharing text. If I would add media, it would be impossible for hobbyists Err bitreich.org 70 i+to run their own servers. You'd need more infrastructure on the size of Err bitreich.org 70 i+facebook for example… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: You have said that 'hobbyists wouldn't be able to run their own Err bitreich.org 70 i+servers'. Does that mean it is easy to set up? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There are several possibilities: There's debian for example, a well Err bitreich.org 70 i+known linux distribution, there are simple tutorials and instructions Err bitreich.org 70 i+on how to set this up. A server has a monthly cost of about 3 EUR/month, Err bitreich.org 70 i+which will be able to run a IRC server. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: And that's easy to get running? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: The server side is a bit more complicated, the client access is Err bitreich.org 70 i+really easy. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: What other protocols are there, that follow this same idea of Err bitreich.org 70 i+preserving bandwith and resources while being comparable replacements? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Before the web there have been many other protocols already, based Err bitreich.org 70 i+on the TCP/IP protocol. On there are ~65000 different ports that can be Err bitreich.org 70 i+used. Today we send all over one or two ports for HTTP and encrypted Err bitreich.org 70 i+HTTPS. There are many more protocols. For example 'dict': A protocol Err bitreich.org 70 i+to query dictionary servers. You send a request 'I'd like to know the Err bitreich.org 70 i+definition of this word' to the server and get back the definition of Err bitreich.org 70 i+the requested word as text. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Is this still in use? How would I use this today? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There is dict.org which maintains the protocol. Bitreich has its Err bitreich.org 70 i+own dictionary server for the urban dictionary which contains funny Err bitreich.org 70 i+definitions of words. It's just another service, not inherently difficult. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: What other protocols are interesting for you? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There's newsgroups, but the problem with them is spam. There's Err bitreich.org 70 i+no efficient spam filtering method for newsgroups which is why they Err bitreich.org 70 i+died. They have survived as a medium to exchange binary data. Which Err bitreich.org 70 i+is why they are blocked in a lot of places due to them being used for Err bitreich.org 70 i+piracy. And the servers don't scale since they all need to keep track Err bitreich.org 70 i+of all the data on the network… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+Then there's the Tor protocol… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Tor has also been around for a while. There have been spectacular Err bitreich.org 70 i+events surrounding the Tor protocol. It's about anonymity right? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes it is about anonymity. Today we now about the spy agencies Err bitreich.org 70 i+through Snowden and them surveilling all the routers in Frankfurt and Err bitreich.org 70 i+elsewhere. Which means they know where a data packet originates and Err bitreich.org 70 i+ends. Tor packages data in a way that one cannot see the way the a packet Err bitreich.org 70 i+is travelling. But the problem with Tor and the web is that there is a Err bitreich.org 70 i+lot of meta data in a webbrowser. This can be used to identify users. This Err bitreich.org 70 i+is where gopher can help. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So Tor is a method to hide your identity and what websites you are Err bitreich.org 70 i+visiting. When you say that there is too much meta data in a browser, Err bitreich.org 70 i+then this means: Information about the browser's config, installed fonts, Err bitreich.org 70 i+size of available RAM etc. Taken together all this information makes Err bitreich.org 70 i+a user's device unique as there are maybe only ~1000 people having the Err bitreich.org 70 i+same configuraition. That's how one can identify users right? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, that's how it works. Gopher can help here because there's a Err bitreich.org 70 i+defined amount of meta data: zero. With Tor there are a couple of things Err bitreich.org 70 i+one has to be aware of: I can leave the Tor network to visit a service Err bitreich.org 70 i+outside or I can access a service inside the Tor network. If I stay Err bitreich.org 70 i+completely inside the Tor network, there's no way for spy agencies to Err bitreich.org 70 i+find the 'end trail' of my packets. That's total anonymity. If I use this Err bitreich.org 70 i+to access the Facebook hidden service and I login with my credentials Err bitreich.org 70 i+I identify myself, so that's pointless. But on gopher there's no way Err bitreich.org 70 i+to login... Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: If you use Tor and you login somewhere then your identity isn't hidden Err bitreich.org 70 i+anymore of course… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's a problem for inexperienced users. They download the Err bitreich.org 70 i+Tor-Browser, want to share their secrets about their regime. If I jsut Err bitreich.org 70 i+hand them a torbrowser, it has certain metadata which spy agencys have Err bitreich.org 70 i+special filters for. So they can be found easily. Which means all the Err bitreich.org 70 i+basic layers have to be designed securely that the average whistleblower Err bitreich.org 70 i+will not get in trouble. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: There have been differnt attempts at preserving privacy and not Err bitreich.org 70 i+handing over data to big companies, by not taking part in one of the big Err bitreich.org 70 i+networks. Are there alternatives to them? As opposed to using Facebook Err bitreich.org 70 i+& Co. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: There's GNU Social for example or mastodon. If I go to facebook all Err bitreich.org 70 i+data goes in and I get nothing out again. But if I use one of these Err bitreich.org 70 i+(slightly more complex) protocols on my home server I can exchange Err bitreich.org 70 i+messages with my friend in france, like: 'He has shared this picture or Err bitreich.org 70 i+text message to the group'. That's decentralisation. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So there's no central datacenter holding all information, but many Err bitreich.org 70 i+servers holding on to what they need to know only. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: The facebook data scandal happened at the right time. There you Err bitreich.org 70 i+noticed that there's political resistance. So facebook, Microsoft and Err bitreich.org 70 i+others started a project to exchange and export data. But so far Facebook Err bitreich.org 70 i+hasn't delivered. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: With export you mean exporting user data? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I am referring to my timeline and all this. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Are there many people using GNU Social or mastodon? Or is this a Err bitreich.org 70 i+niche for specialists and nerds that care more about their privacy? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It's really easy to use: enter 'gnu.social' in a webbrowser and Err bitreich.org 70 i+you will get redirected ot a server instance. There are many of them Err bitreich.org 70 i+and you choose the one where all your friends are already in the best Err bitreich.org 70 i+case. You sign up there and then you will use this server to post into Err bitreich.org 70 i+the network. It's all usable within the browser and it looks a lot Err bitreich.org 70 i+like facebook. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: We have talked about software and how to install it. You need to have Err bitreich.org 70 i+some background knowledge for using a command line as it is just a window Err bitreich.org 70 i+with text, you enter text commands etc. What do you think about people Err bitreich.org 70 i+getting into this: Does this have the potential to being used by a lot Err bitreich.org 70 i+of people or even becomming mainstream? Can this work? Or is this too Err bitreich.org 70 i+unwieldy and slow and complex for them? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Let's look at the argument someone makes when switching from windows Err bitreich.org 70 i+to linux: But there's only a command line! But if I take interest in Err bitreich.org 70 i+my device then I'll learn how to use it. Back in the days I could fix Err bitreich.org 70 i+a radio myself. Today I don't know what this funny device is doing… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Yes? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's the point. It's about having fun with computers. If you regain Err bitreich.org 70 i+that you'll learn how it operates and you'll dig deeper. And you will Err bitreich.org 70 i+be able to modify it yourself. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: On the other hand a modern radio or computer does have a lot Err bitreich.org 70 i+more features than a cathode tube radio, like searching for stations Err bitreich.org 70 i+automatically, data transfer and offering a combination of different Err bitreich.org 70 i+sources (analog radio, digital radio, internet streams). That's way easier Err bitreich.org 70 i+than fiddling with the station knob yourself until you are listening to Err bitreich.org 70 i+the station you want. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I want to make a counter proposal: The problem with this is that you'll Err bitreich.org 70 i+have to buy a new device every year a new protocol is established. But Err bitreich.org 70 i+there are also things like the Raspberry Pi that's running linux and you Err bitreich.org 70 i+can build your peripherals around that. If you want you can exchange Err bitreich.org 70 i+that for something with more computing power later. It's all about Err bitreich.org 70 i+modularity and wasting less. For computers and smartphones we do see Err bitreich.org 70 i+this developments towards open source hardware. It will take very long Err bitreich.org 70 i+due to vendors actively blocking these efforts. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Simple usage also enables more people to use this technology. For Err bitreich.org 70 i+example a navigation service on my smartphone is more comfortable than Err bitreich.org 70 i+carrying around paper maps. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's why we talk about this. People need to know that the price Err bitreich.org 70 i+for all this comfort is being under total surveillance. And the Err bitreich.org 70 i+machine controlls me. That's why one needs to know how the machine Err bitreich.org 70 i+works. Otherwise this will all be like magic and magic is never a good Err bitreich.org 70 i+thing. We need more science. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: I'd like to come back to the navigation example: I've got a smartphone Err bitreich.org 70 i+with an app and can accurately see where I am. That's a service I'd like Err bitreich.org 70 i+to use, but I don't want to wade through complex software and install Err bitreich.org 70 i+text only interfaces. That's too much for most people I think? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, noone will get attracted because of that. We do advocate that Err bitreich.org 70 i+every project should be reusable. If we talk about maps, there's a map Err bitreich.org 70 i+database, openstreetmap. There's someone that inputs all the maps into Err bitreich.org 70 i+the database, there's a program generating maps. Now someone can put a Err bitreich.org 70 i+text interface in front of the database to get to the same data. Not like Err bitreich.org 70 i+facebook where data is hidden behind one web interface. If Facebook's Err bitreich.org 70 i+going out of business all the data is gone. So we say: reusability. It Err bitreich.org 70 i+would be a huge waste to redo all this data. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: What's the reason we don't have data reusablility today but big Err bitreich.org 70 i+companies that collect all the data and not a lot of small contributions Err bitreich.org 70 i+by people? After all the idea has been around for 20/30 years as well.. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Consumption is the problem. What's left of our social structure is Err bitreich.org 70 i+the 'I want' and 'I get'. Everything in between the 'waiting', 'I need Err bitreich.org 70 i+to master this' has been lost to Hypercapitalism. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: What do you think one can do about this? Is your attempt of focussing Err bitreich.org 70 i+on simple protocols trying to turn back the wheel of time a little or Err bitreich.org 70 i+changing it's direction a little? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I cannot convert the whole world. That's impossible. It's about showing Err bitreich.org 70 i+a different way. Someday someone will come along and use all this because Err bitreich.org 70 i+it fits his needs. If I only have a generation of smartphone users that Err bitreich.org 70 i+never have touched a personal computer, then they need to know that Err bitreich.org 70 i+there's a cleaner and simpler way. You hand does not have to get warm Err bitreich.org 70 i+when surfing the web. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: If I may exaggerate a little: We have had steam engines and horse Err bitreich.org 70 i+carriages back then, today's tools are a lot better, more efficient and Err bitreich.org 70 i+comfortable and enable us more? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: No! We beg to differ: Some of the old protocols could not reach Err bitreich.org 70 i+everyone due to technical problems. But now I have gigabit internet Err bitreich.org 70 i+connections and so on, content distribution over gopher is instant. You Err bitreich.org 70 i+will see a difference. Try moving the mouse on a current Microsoft Windows Err bitreich.org 70 i+machine and compare it to a Windows 95 device. The older machine will Err bitreich.org 70 i+be faster. There are less layers of abstraction at work, it's simpler. A Err bitreich.org 70 i+computer has to do some real work, not existing in pure theory, like in Err bitreich.org 70 i+a bureaucracy. It's about practicality and fun. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Having fun with the computer is a recurring topic. Is this a central Err bitreich.org 70 i+point for you and your allies? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes it is like in any other club out there. If it is no fun, why Err bitreich.org 70 i+go there? We are hobbyists, working 8-10 hours per day, then I need Err bitreich.org 70 i+a good reason for doing this. That may be why there's often rougher Err bitreich.org 70 i+commnunication happening. Maybe due to us being human and not service Err bitreich.org 70 i+staff. Then it may happen that we demand some signs of self help from Err bitreich.org 70 i+others. This is not a self-service shop but a hobby. If I want to be Err bitreich.org 70 i+part of that I have to do my share... Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+[radio jingle] Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Here's the ABS Magasin: Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales. Your magazine Err bitreich.org 70 i+about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt citizen radio. We Err bitreich.org 70 i+have talked about the gopher protocol, the simple way of exchanging text Err bitreich.org 70 i+over the internet. We will continue our talk with Christoph as there Err bitreich.org 70 i+are now some people that want to take care of the future development Err bitreich.org 70 i+of gopher. What's the current state of affairs and how to move on? That Err bitreich.org 70 i+will be one of the topics of an upcomming conference and we would like Err bitreich.org 70 i+to know what will happen there. What's it about? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It's about 'bitreich con' or conference. That will take place next Err bitreich.org 70 i+saturday and sunday in Rodez, d partement Aveyron, South France as Err bitreich.org 70 i+there's a bitreich member living there. But you can also follow the Err bitreich.org 70 i+event online. There's the slides available on the gopher hole via ssh, Err bitreich.org 70 i+an audio stream via gopher and IRC chat. So everyone can participate. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So one can listen to talks, the discussions and ask questions via Err bitreich.org 70 i+the IRC channel. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Exactly! And your upper legs won't get burned while doing so. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: What's the schedule for the conference? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: On saturday we will talk about bitreich and what has happened there. We Err bitreich.org 70 i+have made changes to our manifest, new members and projects. On sunday we Err bitreich.org 70 i+will talk about gopher exclusively. A lot of americans will be looking Err bitreich.org 70 i+forward to this as there hasn't been a gopher con in a long time. And Err bitreich.org 70 i+they are mostly part of the older gopher community. So this will be the Err bitreich.org 70 i+first time that we will all meet together again. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: And what will happen there? Will there be talks, programming sessions Err bitreich.org 70 i+or just a social event with discussions? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: The most important thing for gopher is that we restart a discussion Err bitreich.org 70 i+that has been dormant for the last years. We need some kind of team Err bitreich.org 70 i+spirit again. As I said we do have 300 gopher servers this year, last Err bitreich.org 70 i+year there have been 100. So there's an increase. The protocol itself Err bitreich.org 70 i+has some sharp edges and warts that need to be discussed as well to Err bitreich.org 70 i+define them in the future. Especially interaction between gopher and Err bitreich.org 70 i+the web is still undefined. And we want to establish a discussion panel, Err bitreich.org 70 i+to keep in touch with each other. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: You say there are 300 servers. What's on them? When I browsed through Err bitreich.org 70 i+them I have found a log of 'phlogs', something you would call a blog on Err bitreich.org 70 i+the web, right? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes phlogs, just like blogs. There are many of then and there have Err bitreich.org 70 i+been a lot of new phlogs. Because distribution of content is so simple, Err bitreich.org 70 i+you upload your text and it's there to be read. Very simple, just as it Err bitreich.org 70 i+should be. There's nothing more that for a blog as well really. A lot of Err bitreich.org 70 i+people do this due to a retro chic, like enjoying it like in the good Err bitreich.org 70 i+old days, some also do it due to it's idea of simplicity. Let me open Err bitreich.org 70 i+up my slides for a talk I have prepared so I can tell you some services Err bitreich.org 70 i+that might be interested for newcommers in the gopherspace. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Gopherspace is the whole part of the network, all servers running the Err bitreich.org 70 i+gopher protocol and all information on them? Just like the world wide web? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, that's what I mean by that. As an example we have the following Err bitreich.org 70 i+services: A gopher frontend for mastodon/GNU Social as an alternative Err bitreich.org 70 i+to Facebook. Then there's an interface for the pirate bay's search, Err bitreich.org 70 i+an Interface for YouTube (search only), Wikipedia, a search searx which Err bitreich.org 70 i+works like Google or duckduckgo but federated. Project Gutenberg, where Err bitreich.org 70 i+old books are collected and there's even a search frontend for netflix. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Those aren't static sites like text or audio or image files. But Err bitreich.org 70 i+there are interactive elements? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's included in the gopher protocol. It's a search feature where Err bitreich.org 70 i+you send a search request to a server and get a response back. That's Err bitreich.org 70 i+how it is used in the pirate bay search for example where I send a search Err bitreich.org 70 i+term and get back a list of torrents to download. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: That's not very different from websites… Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Oh yes, it's different! I have mentioned the structure imposed by Err bitreich.org 70 i+gopher before. The looks will always be the same. I have a list of menus Err bitreich.org 70 i+and links, which I can follow until there's a file behind it or more Err bitreich.org 70 i+information. On the web you'll often have trouble finding your content Err bitreich.org 70 i+due to all the ads. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So the web currently is very heavy on graphics giving web designers a Err bitreich.org 70 i+lot of possibilities to create a page. And then there are factors that Err bitreich.org 70 i+have contributed to rising advertisements and the increasing resource Err bitreich.org 70 i+hunger of these websites. Wouldn't it also be a proposal to say: Let's Err bitreich.org 70 i+just use HTML 1.0 like in the beginning of the web? You'd get images and Err bitreich.org 70 i+links but no extra code execution via javascript. Is that in alignment Err bitreich.org 70 i+with your goals? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I still have in mind what I have said about meta data and Tor. It would Err bitreich.org 70 i+be a step in the right direction but many have tried this and many many Err bitreich.org 70 i+have failed. That's a problem. The only thing you can do on the web to day Err bitreich.org 70 i+is to browse the mobile version of a site and suddenly it's accessible. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: When you say 'failed', who do you tell? Does that mean it's too Err bitreich.org 70 i+complicated to create even simple websites? Or did they fail because they Err bitreich.org 70 i+look old and too retro? How can you tell that their attempt has failed? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It's the same problem why we won't see gopher taking over the Err bitreich.org 70 i+world. It's all too big. The same technology is everywhere but is seen Err bitreich.org 70 i+differently in India or Afrika than here. Everyone has a different Err bitreich.org 70 i+knowledge level. The same is true for repairs. Knowledge gets lost. The Err bitreich.org 70 i+current generation does not this. It's important to show them that it Err bitreich.org 70 i+can be different, it's about preserving that knowledge. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: With repairs you are referring to the ability to repair your own Err bitreich.org 70 i+devices because they are designed in a simple way? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes, but there's more to that today. We are in an era of 3D printing Err bitreich.org 70 i+where Airbus will get 40% of the parts for an airplane out of a 3D Err bitreich.org 70 i+printer. If done right we can do this also for the end user. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: So the HTML 1.0 revival has been an interesting idea from your point of Err bitreich.org 70 i+view but it's not really suited to keep to simple and essential protocols? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: The problem with web development is that it's just piling up Err bitreich.org 70 i+layers of software. There's javascript on top of javascript on top of Err bitreich.org 70 i+javascript. The same is true for all commercial development. Why is it Err bitreich.org 70 i+the hobbyists that have to take care of simplification? Everyone lives Err bitreich.org 70 i+in their own filter bubble and as long as there's profit there's no need Err bitreich.org 70 i+for change. That's a problem and that's why we have to show a new way Err bitreich.org 70 i+as an alternative. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: If I keep piling up layers upon layers and build it so that I can Err bitreich.org 70 i+still access the older layers then that's surely an advantage? To be Err bitreich.org 70 i+able to continuously carry on work while being backwards compatible Err bitreich.org 70 i+without making hard cuts where old content will not work anymore - Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's a totally different problem: Take archive.org, the people Err bitreich.org 70 i+trying to archive the web. They have huge problems scraping modern Err bitreich.org 70 i+webpages trying to find content and archive it. That's due to the core Err bitreich.org 70 i+problem of us not useing text anymore. That has to be solved. We use Err bitreich.org 70 i+abstractions not test. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Currently when using HTML, text files are transferred. Or are you Err bitreich.org 70 i+fearing that there's just binary data exchanged in the future, to present Err bitreich.org 70 i+you an image containing text? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's really happening at the moment, it's called web assembly. So Err bitreich.org 70 i+there's binary programs being executed in the browser which further Err bitreich.org 70 i+complicates it all. This also implies more acccess to the computer Err bitreich.org 70 i+hardware, another issue we have been warning about since Snowden. It Err bitreich.org 70 i+will get a lot worse. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: That sounds pretty fatalistic, the web is a lost cause and cannot be Err bitreich.org 70 i+saved. Is it really that bleak? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: It will get more complex and intransparent. I cannot see it Err bitreich.org 70 i+differently. The developments of the last 20 years have been going in Err bitreich.org 70 i+this direction. We currently have only 3 web browsers left, that's als Err bitreich.org 70 i+a sign. With gopher one can implement a client in a couple of minutes Err bitreich.org 70 i+in virtually any programming langugage. There are only 3 browsers left Err bitreich.org 70 i+because not a single person will manage to write another one in their Err bitreich.org 70 i+live time. That's impossible with current standards. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Do you have to recreate everything from scratch? Isn't it a Err bitreich.org 70 i+possibility to stand on the shoulders of giants and do great things Err bitreich.org 70 i+with that? Otherwise we will again have to solve the same problems with Err bitreich.org 70 i+primitive tooling that have been solver already. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's the same argument we have already had. The world's too big. We Err bitreich.org 70 i+offer one proposal how to make things simpler. Sometimes it gets picked Err bitreich.org 70 i+up, sometimes it isn't. But it's about spreading this idea: It's possible Err bitreich.org 70 i+to make it simpler! There are many people out there doing simple web Err bitreich.org 70 i+pages but total and absolute simplicity will not happen. If we'd all use Err bitreich.org 70 i+the same webbrowser for example we'd also have all the same security Err bitreich.org 70 i+flaws. That's another point: With linux everyone can build their own Err bitreich.org 70 i+system and is indepedent. Like with natural selection monoculture makes Err bitreich.org 70 i+us fallible to the same virus. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: You say: We need to experiment, we need to be diverse we need to create Err bitreich.org 70 i+things as we want them as users which is not the same as companies would Err bitreich.org 70 i+like to design webpages and our communications. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Companies may do what they want, once they see that people use our Err bitreich.org 70 i+things because they are fun… as it is happening at Microsoft, they Err bitreich.org 70 i+switch over to linux because linux is fun and they are having trouble Err bitreich.org 70 i+finding developers that do Micrososift. That's why Microsoft is developing Err bitreich.org 70 i+a linux subsystem and is porting linux software to it. Because there's Err bitreich.org 70 i+noone who wants to work with this tedious and boring Microsoft stuff. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Really? I have got the impression that windows is widespread in Err bitreich.org 70 i+industry applications where software is available for windows only. Or Err bitreich.org 70 i+in the games industry where a x86 windows platform is the prime one and Err bitreich.org 70 i+Windows the tool of choice. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That depends on your point of view! Linux has simply won! Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: *laughs* Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Take the smartphone: 90% is running linux and there are whole Err bitreich.org 70 i+generations of people in africa that use their phones as their sole Err bitreich.org 70 i+device. Those are all linux users. Industry and commerce applications Err bitreich.org 70 i+are niche products and niches move very slowly. Maybe we'll see a change Err bitreich.org 70 i+there in 20-30 years. And that's the point: Now we have the possibility, Err bitreich.org 70 i+now that there are no developers for Microsoft that do it with all their Err bitreich.org 70 i+heart, it's all about passion anyway, then we have people here on the Err bitreich.org 70 i+other hadn, that switch all over to linux. Microsoft is supporting docker, Err bitreich.org 70 i+they even distribute their own linux images for their cloud service. Linux Err bitreich.org 70 i+has won. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: You said that in some countries the desktop is irrelevant now, a Err bitreich.org 70 i+smartphone more important. Do you think that's a development that will Err bitreich.org 70 i+also reach us? Will the smartphone replace the laptop? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: I can simply tell you an observation: We have had a village festival Err bitreich.org 70 i+here the other day and all the young ladies where sitting there using Err bitreich.org 70 i+their smartphone. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Okay... Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: That's a sign isn't it! Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: I see that you have a clear picture in mind… How's the reach of Err bitreich.org 70 i+your project with gopher, irc and alternative social networks. Do you Err bitreich.org 70 i+see any international recognition? Or is it more some experiment of Err bitreich.org 70 i+people in the industrial nations? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Americans, as these are the old Gents that have been tinkering with Err bitreich.org 70 i+gopher in the old days, but there is also a wide reach in europ. I have Err bitreich.org 70 i+seen a world map yesterday containing all the gopher servers. There Err bitreich.org 70 i+have been 3 in africa, japan has had a couple, asia… there are Err bitreich.org 70 i+interested people everywhere. I know 2 enthusiasts from argentina through Err bitreich.org 70 i+bitreich. We are international, english is our langugae as wer are small. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Is there a way to access gopher on smartphones? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Proxies are the easiest way, seconed by 'overbite'. That's a gopher Err bitreich.org 70 i+plugin for browsers made by Cameron Kaiser, an american developer. He has Err bitreich.org 70 i+build solutions for Firefox and Chromium. You can find this through your Err bitreich.org 70 i+webbrowser. There are also graphical clients but those you'll have to Err bitreich.org 70 i+build yourself, so that's not suitable for beginners. But it's the same Err bitreich.org 70 i+as on the desktop: The advanced users have their command line where they Err bitreich.org 70 i+can run any of the command line clients, as it is a linux system. And Err bitreich.org 70 i+the people specialised on the web can access it through a proxy. So Err bitreich.org 70 i+there's accessibility on all levels including 'backwards' compatibility. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: You'll have your conference soon, where you will exchange ideas. Will Err bitreich.org 70 i+there be a way to read up on this later? Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+C: Yes the recordings and slides will be available online. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+M: Being available online is the right clue! You all know that Err bitreich.org 70 i+you can listen to all of episodes of the ABS Magazin on our website Err bitreich.org 70 i+absmagazin.de. There you can listen again to how this all works, have a Err bitreich.org 70 i+look at the shownotes where we will put in all the links that have been Err bitreich.org 70 i+mentioned on the show. Err bitreich.org 70 i+ Err bitreich.org 70 i+You have been listening to this week's episode of the ABS Magazine. You Err bitreich.org 70 i+have seen that there are many possibilities and a lot of them you can Err bitreich.org 70 i+use for yourself, to create your information channels as you want them Err bitreich.org 70 i+to be. Thanks for being with us, thanks for listening! You can join Err bitreich.org 70 i+us again next week at 4pm on radio-x, 91,8MHz your Frankfurt citizen Err bitreich.org 70 i+radio. So long! Err bitreich.org 70 .