ienglish.txt - radio-interview-2018 - absmagazine interview about bitreich and gopher transcription files Err bitreich.org 70 hgit clone git://bitreich.org/radio-interview-2018 URL:git://bitreich.org/radio-interview-2018 bitreich.org 70 1Log /scm/radio-interview-2018/log.gph bitreich.org 70 1Files /scm/radio-interview-2018/files.gph bitreich.org 70 1Refs /scm/radio-interview-2018/refs.gph bitreich.org 70 1Tags /scm/radio-interview-2018/tag bitreich.org 70 1README /scm/radio-interview-2018/file/README.gph bitreich.org 70 1LICENSE /scm/radio-interview-2018/file/LICENSE.gph bitreich.org 70 i--- Err bitreich.org 70 ienglish.txt (34441B) Err bitreich.org 70 i--- Err bitreich.org 70 i 1 # Introduction Err bitreich.org 70 i 2 Err bitreich.org 70 i 3 This interview was held on 2018-08-05 and published on 2018-08-08 in the Err bitreich.org 70 i 4 absmagazin (http://absmagazin.de). Here is the German website of the Err bitreich.org 70 i 5 interview: Err bitreich.org 70 i 6 Err bitreich.org 70 i 7 http://absmagazin.de/Members/radio/sendung/abs180808.mp3 Err bitreich.org 70 i 8 Err bitreich.org 70 i 9 Please see the corrigenda at the end. Err bitreich.org 70 i 10 Err bitreich.org 70 i 11 Please see the links list for all references. Err bitreich.org 70 i 12 Err bitreich.org 70 i 13 # Interview Transcription from German Err bitreich.org 70 i 14 Err bitreich.org 70 i 15 [intro music] Err bitreich.org 70 i 16 Err bitreich.org 70 i 17 Michael(M): Here's the ABS Magazin - "Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales" Err bitreich.org 70 i 18 - Your magazine about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt Err bitreich.org 70 i 19 citizen radio. Err bitreich.org 70 i 20 Err bitreich.org 70 i 21 Nice to have you all here! Thanks for listening! We have got a new episode Err bitreich.org 70 i 22 for you, exciting things from the realm of communication technology. Err bitreich.org 70 i 23 We want to talk specifically about the internet... No, we do not want to Err bitreich.org 70 i 24 talk about the internet, neither do we want to talk about the dark net Err bitreich.org 70 i 25 today, but something even more obscure: Today will be about 'gopher space'. Err bitreich.org 70 i 26 Err bitreich.org 70 i 27 'Gopher' is a protocol, which has been introduced a bit earlier than Err bitreich.org 70 i 28 the world wide web. But it has faded a bit into obscurity. A protocol, Err bitreich.org 70 i 29 which might have to be said, is the way how computers talk to each Err bitreich.org 70 i 30 other, how they exchange their data. You may have heard about the HTTP Err bitreich.org 70 i 31 protocol. You are using this when typing an URL into your browser. Or Err bitreich.org 70 i 32 there is a protocol handling the exchange of E-Mails. And there's the Err bitreich.org 70 i 33 'gopher' protocol. Which is interesting in particular as it is simple Err bitreich.org 70 i 34 and similar to the web, such as: Gopher server provide text and provide Err bitreich.org 70 i 35 links. What they do not provide are pictures, additional features, Err bitreich.org 70 i 36 JavaScript or other complicated things. Err bitreich.org 70 i 37 Err bitreich.org 70 i 38 This restriction providing text and links does also mean, that you can Err bitreich.org 70 i 39 work very fast with it, pages do load super fast. And there are people Err bitreich.org 70 i 40 saying that the web is too bloated, there's too much advertising, to Err bitreich.org 70 i 41 much nick-nack. It is getting more and more difficult to get to the real Err bitreich.org 70 i 42 information on a site. Under these circumstance it is to the point to Err bitreich.org 70 i 43 have a closer look at the gopher protocol. Err bitreich.org 70 i 44 Err bitreich.org 70 i 45 We have talked to someone, who's knowledgeable in this field. There Err bitreich.org 70 i 46 is a group of people who will hold a conference soon, to discuss the Err bitreich.org 70 i 47 future of the gopher protocol and how to build a real, interesting, Err bitreich.org 70 i 48 alternative to the world wide web. But now we will have a little bit Err bitreich.org 70 i 49 of music: Mrs. Beep with 'The spring is coming' a little bit of 8 bit Err bitreich.org 70 i 50 music. After that we will talk with Christoph Lohmann, who will tell us Err bitreich.org 70 i 51 something about the gopher protocol. Err bitreich.org 70 i 52 Err bitreich.org 70 i 53 [...music cut out...] Err bitreich.org 70 i 54 Err bitreich.org 70 i 55 Err bitreich.org 70 i 56 Yes, now we have Christoph here. He is a bit of a computer nerd, a Err bitreich.org 70 i 57 hobbyist, who is tinkering with software, hardware, programming and Err bitreich.org 70 i 58 protocols -- everything that's computer related and how they communicate. Err bitreich.org 70 i 59 Err bitreich.org 70 i 60 M: Hello Christoph! Err bitreich.org 70 i 61 Err bitreich.org 70 i 62 Christoph(C): Greetings Michael, here's Christoph! Err bitreich.org 70 i 63 Err bitreich.org 70 i 64 M: I have read that you are running a project called 'bitreich'. This Err bitreich.org 70 i 65 project is using some protocols that aren't known widely. But what's Err bitreich.org 70 i 66 this project about? Err bitreich.org 70 i 67 Err bitreich.org 70 i 68 C: bitreich's goal is to create simple software. This includes simple Err bitreich.org 70 i 69 protocols like gopher. Simple principles, software that's fun to use. Our Err bitreich.org 70 i 70 goals are stated on the website or better the gopher hole. Err bitreich.org 70 i 71 Err bitreich.org 70 i 72 M: Yes... Err bitreich.org 70 i 73 Err bitreich.org 70 i 74 C: There are.. Well, we wanted to talk about gopher. It's about replacing Err bitreich.org 70 i 75 big complex things with simple stuff which you can even implement yourself. Err bitreich.org 70 i 76 Err bitreich.org 70 i 77 M: Gopher does translate as 'Maulwurf' (German) right? Err bitreich.org 70 i 78 Err bitreich.org 70 i 79 C: Yes it does[1], it is derived from the gopher mascot of the MIT[2], Err bitreich.org 70 i 80 a university in the US. Also it is a pun on 'to go for'. Err bitreich.org 70 i 81 Err bitreich.org 70 i 82 M: This protocol has existed for quite a long time now, probably earlier Err bitreich.org 70 i 83 than the world wide web? Err bitreich.org 70 i 84 Err bitreich.org 70 i 85 C: It has been developed in 1991, where the goal has been to connect Err bitreich.org 70 i 86 different databases at MIT with a hierarchical protocol. It has been Err bitreich.org 70 i 87 surpassed by the web sadly, which has been picked up faster, to put Err bitreich.org 70 i 88 it simply. Err bitreich.org 70 i 89 Err bitreich.org 70 i 90 M: How do the web and gopher differ? Err bitreich.org 70 i 91 Err bitreich.org 70 i 92 C: One has to differentiate between the data transport and display. In Err bitreich.org 70 i 93 the web there's HTTP for transport, then HTML for displaying the web Err bitreich.org 70 i 94 page in my browser. In gopher I have one protocol that already defines Err bitreich.org 70 i 95 simple menus. I know exactly that an item is a link and what will happen, Err bitreich.org 70 i 96 when I click on it. They are already defined in the protocol. Which Err bitreich.org 70 i 97 means the structure is more strict. As opposed to the web. Err bitreich.org 70 i 98 Err bitreich.org 70 i 99 M: So like, when I am on a website often I have to relearn the navigation Err bitreich.org 70 i 100 and where to find things... Err bitreich.org 70 i 101 Err bitreich.org 70 i 102 C: That's another issue on the web. There are even languages and Err bitreich.org 70 i 103 mechanisms, that can hide this from you. And a 'link' nowadays does not Err bitreich.org 70 i 104 mean 'go to this website' anymore. That's part of the problem. In gopher Err bitreich.org 70 i 105 you have this simplified, there's a link pointing to somewhere and I Err bitreich.org 70 i 106 just follow that. On the end of the link there may be another menu and Err bitreich.org 70 i 107 so on forming a tree of information for me to browse. Err bitreich.org 70 i 108 Err bitreich.org 70 i 109 M: If I understood you correctly, the display of data in gopher is mostly Err bitreich.org 70 i 110 text based? Err bitreich.org 70 i 111 Err bitreich.org 70 i 112 C: That's how it has been defined, yes. It's all about text. Images Err bitreich.org 70 i 113 have been added to it, but back in the days there have been all these Err bitreich.org 70 i 114 terminals with these old screens only capable of displaying text. But Err bitreich.org 70 i 115 it's about text, it's about a simple way to exchange information. And Err bitreich.org 70 i 116 that's pure text. Err bitreich.org 70 i 117 Err bitreich.org 70 i 118 M: Or two people talk to each other, they also can exchange ideas or Err bitreich.org 70 i 119 information that way. Err bitreich.org 70 i 120 Err bitreich.org 70 i 121 C: Yeah, text is even more simple. If you take this further, there's for Err bitreich.org 70 i 122 example Linux, which listeners may have heard about. That's about how I Err bitreich.org 70 i 123 can do text processing on the command line. With images you'll have to Err bitreich.org 70 i 124 deal with more complex algorithms and that's not as easy to use. Err bitreich.org 70 i 125 Err bitreich.org 70 i 126 M: Hearing all this I think this is also about using simple programs Err bitreich.org 70 i 127 that use less resources? If I transfer a text file it is probably much Err bitreich.org 70 i 128 smaller than an Image or a video file. Err bitreich.org 70 i 129 Err bitreich.org 70 i 130 C: Yes, that's right. I can tell a story where I have needed this Err bitreich.org 70 i 131 badly: In Bhutan in south Asia, north of India, where it's all about Err bitreich.org 70 i 132 the happiness of people, not like here… They have got a GSM Network Err bitreich.org 70 i 133 only. There has been a blackout and there has been only this slow data Err bitreich.org 70 i 134 network. But I have successfully retrieved my needed information via Err bitreich.org 70 i 135 gopher. It does not need a lot of resources. Err bitreich.org 70 i 136 Err bitreich.org 70 i 137 M: So it is a protocol that's interesting for areas that are less Err bitreich.org 70 i 138 developed or where the aren't so many resources available? Err bitreich.org 70 i 139 Err bitreich.org 70 i 140 C: Yes, gopher saves resources, but over all, since the web's problem is Err bitreich.org 70 i 141 illustrated with YouTube: Someone reads a text in a video which is served Err bitreich.org 70 i 142 in HD and viewed on a 4k monitor. I could have sent out the text instead! Err bitreich.org 70 i 143 Err bitreich.org 70 i 144 M: So the approach is this: Here is a protocol and programs, allowing to Err bitreich.org 70 i 145 transfer information efficiently and fast. Sometimes as much information Err bitreich.org 70 i 146 as in a read out video. Is this a new trend? Err bitreich.org 70 i 147 Err bitreich.org 70 i 148 C: Gopher has been dormant for a long time, since the web has gotten Err bitreich.org 70 i 149 popular. The current developments are that smart phones are getting Err bitreich.org 70 i 150 more powerful with more CPU cores on one hand but the systems get Err bitreich.org 70 i 151 slower more and more on the other hand. This prompted a lot of people Err bitreich.org 70 i 152 to think about alternatives. Also among experts who know about the web's Err bitreich.org 70 i 153 complexity. Gopher is a part of this alternative. Err bitreich.org 70 i 154 Err bitreich.org 70 i 155 M: So there's a movement that strives for less complexity and resource Err bitreich.org 70 i 156 usage? Err bitreich.org 70 i 157 Err bitreich.org 70 i 158 C: Yes, it's about the internet, not only the web. There's a lot more Err bitreich.org 70 i 159 besides the web. Bitreich is the part where software shall become simpler, Err bitreich.org 70 i 160 since that's all connected. Err bitreich.org 70 i 161 Err bitreich.org 70 i 162 M: In your bitreich software development you write programs, that you Err bitreich.org 70 i 163 use for yourself or because they are so simple to use them yourself...? Err bitreich.org 70 i 164 Err bitreich.org 70 i 165 C: It's about the command line in bitreich, for experienced users. The Err bitreich.org 70 i 166 graphical user interfaces need a lot of resources. Gopher is the part Err bitreich.org 70 i 167 for the end user. For developers it's about having nice command line Err bitreich.org 70 i 168 tools that are fun to use. That's our goal. And that's achievable through Err bitreich.org 70 i 169 simplicity only. Err bitreich.org 70 i 170 Err bitreich.org 70 i 171 M: Are modern tools too complicated with their graphical interfaces? Is Err bitreich.org 70 i 172 that really taking out the fun? Err bitreich.org 70 i 173 Err bitreich.org 70 i 174 C: Well, in the old days you'd have opened a text editor, which used up Err bitreich.org 70 i 175 200 kilobytes of RAM. Today when you open up an editor it will load a Err bitreich.org 70 i 176 browser in the background, this web browser will load JavaScript and Err bitreich.org 70 i 177 this all uses up to several gigabytes of your RAM. And then this all Err bitreich.org 70 i 178 has to display your source file. That's the current state of affairs! Err bitreich.org 70 i 179 Err bitreich.org 70 i 180 M: When you say you want to find new ways with bitreich project, to use Err bitreich.org 70 i 181 less resources. Does it work? What are your experiences? Is it really Err bitreich.org 70 i 182 more fun than viewing smooth videos on YouTube? Err bitreich.org 70 i 183 Err bitreich.org 70 i 184 C: I can see that I won't burn my upper legs when using gopher Err bitreich.org 70 i 185 as opposed to viewing a website, where my laptop fan goes on and Err bitreich.org 70 i 186 everything. Currently there are about 300 gopher servers, so we are Err bitreich.org 70 i 187 a small fraction on the net. The whole web currently uses ~2% of the Err bitreich.org 70 i 188 global electricity, sometimes even more… Err bitreich.org 70 i 189 Err bitreich.org 70 i 190 M: But one needs to have a bit of a background to use all this? If I Err bitreich.org 70 i 191 imagine how easy it is today for average smartphone user to surf the Err bitreich.org 70 i 192 web or go into a chat with other people exchanging text messages. You Err bitreich.org 70 i 193 can visit an app store and will find ready made software. One click I'll Err bitreich.org 70 i 194 get it installed. If I want to use gopher that's not so easy is it? Or Err bitreich.org 70 i 195 a program to chat with others? Err bitreich.org 70 i 196 Err bitreich.org 70 i 197 C: There are different layers here. First you start by visiting Err bitreich.org 70 i 198 gopherproject.org and if you are not using a gopher client you will Err bitreich.org 70 i 199 be redirected to a 'web to gopher converter'. You'll be able to browse Err bitreich.org 70 i 200 gopher sites in your web browser. And that's the entry point where you Err bitreich.org 70 i 201 will get to further gates. Err bitreich.org 70 i 202 Err bitreich.org 70 i 203 M: So it's a gateway that I can use with a normal browser that does not Err bitreich.org 70 i 204 speak gopher and still be able to browse gopher sites? Err bitreich.org 70 i 205 Err bitreich.org 70 i 206 C: There are also plugins for web browsers, at least Firefox and Err bitreich.org 70 i 207 chromium. One of the problems is that currently there has been a change Err bitreich.org 70 i 208 in plugins for these so there might be incompatibilities. There are Err bitreich.org 70 i 209 many more clients listed on gopher project.org. Err bitreich.org 70 i 210 Err bitreich.org 70 i 211 M: What about chat? I know there was a protocol that has been in use a Err bitreich.org 70 i 212 lot: IRC - Internet relay chat. That's not as popular today is it? Err bitreich.org 70 i 213 Err bitreich.org 70 i 214 C: It is popular among software developers, because every open source Err bitreich.org 70 i 215 project has their own channel. That's the easiest way to talk to Err bitreich.org 70 i 216 developers and users. There are web clients, mobile clients, command Err bitreich.org 70 i 217 line clients. IRC is implemented almost everywhere. Err bitreich.org 70 i 218 Err bitreich.org 70 i 219 M: That's capable of doing the things you can do with a messenger on Err bitreich.org 70 i 220 the smartphone? Err bitreich.org 70 i 221 Err bitreich.org 70 i 222 C: It could but does not want to? Err bitreich.org 70 i 223 Err bitreich.org 70 i 224 M: Really? Err bitreich.org 70 i 225 Err bitreich.org 70 i 226 C: I do have the possibility to share, say a video, in whatsapp or Err bitreich.org 70 i 227 images. You do not want this on IRC, it is a simple protocol. It's about Err bitreich.org 70 i 228 sharing text. If I would add media, it would be impossible for hobbyists Err bitreich.org 70 i 229 to run their own servers. You'd need more infrastructure on the size of Err bitreich.org 70 i 230 Facebook for example… Err bitreich.org 70 i 231 Err bitreich.org 70 i 232 M: You have said that 'hobbyists wouldn't be able to run their own Err bitreich.org 70 i 233 servers'. Does that mean it is easy to set up? Err bitreich.org 70 i 234 Err bitreich.org 70 i 235 C: There are several possibilities: There's Debian for example, a well Err bitreich.org 70 i 236 known Linux distribution, there are simple tutorials and instructions Err bitreich.org 70 i 237 on how to set this up. A server has a monthly cost of about 3 EUR/month, Err bitreich.org 70 i 238 which will be able to run a IRC server. Err bitreich.org 70 i 239 Err bitreich.org 70 i 240 M: And that's easy to get running? Err bitreich.org 70 i 241 Err bitreich.org 70 i 242 C: The server side is a bit more complicated, the client access is Err bitreich.org 70 i 243 really easy. Err bitreich.org 70 i 244 Err bitreich.org 70 i 245 M: What other protocols are there, that follow this same idea of Err bitreich.org 70 i 246 preserving bandwidth and resources while being comparable replacements? Err bitreich.org 70 i 247 Err bitreich.org 70 i 248 C: Before the web there have been many other protocols already, based Err bitreich.org 70 i 249 on the TCP/IP protocol. On there are ~65000 different ports that can be Err bitreich.org 70 i 250 used. Today we send all over one or two ports for HTTP and encrypted Err bitreich.org 70 i 251 HTTPS. There are many more protocols. For example 'dict': A protocol Err bitreich.org 70 i 252 to query dictionary servers. You send a request 'I'd like to know the Err bitreich.org 70 i 253 definition of this word' to the server and get back the definition of Err bitreich.org 70 i 254 the requested word as text. Err bitreich.org 70 i 255 Err bitreich.org 70 i 256 M: Is this still in use? How would I use this today? Err bitreich.org 70 i 257 Err bitreich.org 70 i 258 C: There is dict.org which maintains the protocol. Bitreich has its Err bitreich.org 70 i 259 own dictionary server for the urban dictionary which contains funny Err bitreich.org 70 i 260 definitions of words. It's just another service, not inherently difficult. Err bitreich.org 70 i 261 Err bitreich.org 70 i 262 M: What other protocols are interesting for you? Err bitreich.org 70 i 263 Err bitreich.org 70 i 264 C: There's newsgroups, but the problem with them is spam. There's Err bitreich.org 70 i 265 no efficient spam filtering method for newsgroups which is why they Err bitreich.org 70 i 266 died. They have survived as a medium to exchange binary data. Which Err bitreich.org 70 i 267 is why they are blocked in a lot of places due to them being used for Err bitreich.org 70 i 268 piracy. And the servers don't scale since they all need to keep track Err bitreich.org 70 i 269 of all the data on the network… Err bitreich.org 70 i 270 Err bitreich.org 70 i 271 Then there's the Tor protocol… Err bitreich.org 70 i 272 Err bitreich.org 70 i 273 M: Tor has also been around for a while. There have been spectacular Err bitreich.org 70 i 274 events surrounding the Tor protocol. It's about anonymity right? Err bitreich.org 70 i 275 Err bitreich.org 70 i 276 C: Yes it is about anonymity. Today we know about the spy agencies Err bitreich.org 70 i 277 through Snowden and them surveilling all the routers in Frankfurt and Err bitreich.org 70 i 278 elsewhere. Which means they know where a data packet originates and Err bitreich.org 70 i 279 ends. Tor packages data in a way that one cannot see the way the a packet Err bitreich.org 70 i 280 is traveling. But the problem with Tor and the web is that there is a Err bitreich.org 70 i 281 lot of meta data in a web browser. This can be used to identify users. This Err bitreich.org 70 i 282 is where gopher can help. Err bitreich.org 70 i 283 Err bitreich.org 70 i 284 M: So Tor is a method to hide your identity and what websites you are Err bitreich.org 70 i 285 visiting. When you say that there is too much meta data in a browser, Err bitreich.org 70 i 286 then this means: Information about the browser's config, installed fonts, Err bitreich.org 70 i 287 size of available RAM etc. Taken together all this information makes Err bitreich.org 70 i 288 a user's device unique as there are maybe only ~1000 people having the Err bitreich.org 70 i 289 same configuration. That's how one can identify users right? Err bitreich.org 70 i 290 Err bitreich.org 70 i 291 C: Yes, that's how it works. Gopher can help here because there's a Err bitreich.org 70 i 292 defined amount of meta data: zero. With Tor there are a couple of things Err bitreich.org 70 i 293 one has to be aware of: I can leave the Tor network to visit a service Err bitreich.org 70 i 294 outside or I can access a service inside the Tor network. If I stay Err bitreich.org 70 i 295 completely inside the Tor network, there's no way for spy agencies to Err bitreich.org 70 i 296 find the 'end trail' of my packets. That's total anonymity. If I use this Err bitreich.org 70 i 297 to access the Facebook hidden service and I login with my credentials Err bitreich.org 70 i 298 I identify myself, so that's pointless. But on gopher there's no way Err bitreich.org 70 i 299 to login... Err bitreich.org 70 i 300 Err bitreich.org 70 i 301 M: If you use Tor and you login somewhere then your identity isn't hidden Err bitreich.org 70 i 302 anymore of course… Err bitreich.org 70 i 303 Err bitreich.org 70 i 304 C: That's a problem for inexperienced users. They download the Err bitreich.org 70 i 305 Tor-Browser, want to share their secrets about their regime. If I just Err bitreich.org 70 i 306 hand them a tor browser, it has certain metadata which spy agencies have Err bitreich.org 70 i 307 special filters for. So they can be found easily. Which means all the Err bitreich.org 70 i 308 basic layers have to be designed securely that the average whistle blower Err bitreich.org 70 i 309 will not get in trouble. Err bitreich.org 70 i 310 Err bitreich.org 70 i 311 M: There have been different attempts at preserving privacy and not Err bitreich.org 70 i 312 handing over data to big companies, by not taking part in one of the big Err bitreich.org 70 i 313 networks. Are there alternatives to them? As opposed to using Facebook Err bitreich.org 70 i 314 & Co. Err bitreich.org 70 i 315 Err bitreich.org 70 i 316 C: There's GNU Social for example or mastodon. If I go to Facebook all Err bitreich.org 70 i 317 data goes in and I get nothing out again. But if I use one of these Err bitreich.org 70 i 318 (slightly more complex) protocols on my home server I can exchange Err bitreich.org 70 i 319 messages with my friend in France, like: 'He has shared this picture or Err bitreich.org 70 i 320 text message to the group'. That's decentralization. Err bitreich.org 70 i 321 Err bitreich.org 70 i 322 M: So there's no central data center holding all information, but many Err bitreich.org 70 i 323 servers holding on to what they need to know only. Err bitreich.org 70 i 324 Err bitreich.org 70 i 325 C: The Facebook data scandal happened at the right time. There you Err bitreich.org 70 i 326 noticed that there's political resistance. So Facebook, Microsoft and Err bitreich.org 70 i 327 others started a project to exchange and export data. But so far Facebook Err bitreich.org 70 i 328 hasn't delivered. Err bitreich.org 70 i 329 Err bitreich.org 70 i 330 M: With export you mean exporting user data? Err bitreich.org 70 i 331 Err bitreich.org 70 i 332 C: I am referring to my timeline and all this. Err bitreich.org 70 i 333 Err bitreich.org 70 i 334 M: Are there many people using GNU Social or mastodon? Or is this a Err bitreich.org 70 i 335 niche for specialists and nerds that care more about their privacy? Err bitreich.org 70 i 336 Err bitreich.org 70 i 337 C: It's really easy to use: enter 'gnu.social' in a web browser and Err bitreich.org 70 i 338 you will get redirected to a server instance. There are many of them Err bitreich.org 70 i 339 and you choose the one where all your friends are already in the best Err bitreich.org 70 i 340 case. You sign up there and then you will use this server to post into Err bitreich.org 70 i 341 the network. It's all usable within the browser and it looks a lot Err bitreich.org 70 i 342 like Facebook. Err bitreich.org 70 i 343 Err bitreich.org 70 i 344 M: We have talked about software and how to install it. You need to have Err bitreich.org 70 i 345 some background knowledge for using a command line as it is just a window Err bitreich.org 70 i 346 with text, you enter text commands etc. What do you think about people Err bitreich.org 70 i 347 getting into this? Does this have the potential to being used by a lot Err bitreich.org 70 i 348 of people or even becoming mainstream? Can this work? Or is this too Err bitreich.org 70 i 349 unwieldy and slow and complex for them? Err bitreich.org 70 i 350 Err bitreich.org 70 i 351 C: Let's look at the argument someone makes when switching from windows Err bitreich.org 70 i 352 to Linux: But there's only a command line! But if I take interest in Err bitreich.org 70 i 353 my device then I'll learn how to use it. Back in the days I could fix Err bitreich.org 70 i 354 a radio myself. Today I don't know what this funny device is doing… Err bitreich.org 70 i 355 Err bitreich.org 70 i 356 M: Yes? Err bitreich.org 70 i 357 Err bitreich.org 70 i 358 C: That's the point. It's about having fun with computers. If you regain Err bitreich.org 70 i 359 that you'll learn how it operates and you'll dig deeper. And you will Err bitreich.org 70 i 360 be able to modify it yourself. Err bitreich.org 70 i 361 Err bitreich.org 70 i 362 M: On the other hand a modern radio or computer does have a lot Err bitreich.org 70 i 363 more features than a cathode tube radio, like searching for stations Err bitreich.org 70 i 364 automatically, data transfer and offering a combination of different Err bitreich.org 70 i 365 sources (analog radio, digital radio, internet streams). That's way easier Err bitreich.org 70 i 366 than fiddling with the station knob yourself until you are listening to Err bitreich.org 70 i 367 the station you want. Err bitreich.org 70 i 368 Err bitreich.org 70 i 369 C: I want to make a counter proposal: The problem with this is that you'll Err bitreich.org 70 i 370 have to buy a new device every year a new protocol is established. But Err bitreich.org 70 i 371 there are also things like the Raspberry Pi that's running Linux and you Err bitreich.org 70 i 372 can build your peripherals around that. If you want you can exchange Err bitreich.org 70 i 373 that for something with more computing power later. It's all about Err bitreich.org 70 i 374 modularity and wasting less. For computers and smartphones we do see Err bitreich.org 70 i 375 this developments towards open source hardware. It will take very long Err bitreich.org 70 i 376 due to vendors actively blocking these efforts. Err bitreich.org 70 i 377 Err bitreich.org 70 i 378 M: Simple usage also enables more people to use this technology. For Err bitreich.org 70 i 379 example a navigation service on my smartphone is more comfortable than Err bitreich.org 70 i 380 carrying around paper maps. Err bitreich.org 70 i 381 Err bitreich.org 70 i 382 C: That's why we talk about this. People need to know that the price Err bitreich.org 70 i 383 for all this comfort is being under total surveillance. And the Err bitreich.org 70 i 384 machine controls me. That's why one needs to know how the machine Err bitreich.org 70 i 385 works. Otherwise this will all be like magic and magic is never a good Err bitreich.org 70 i 386 thing. We need more science. Err bitreich.org 70 i 387 Err bitreich.org 70 i 388 M: I'd like to come back to the navigation example: I've got a smartphone Err bitreich.org 70 i 389 with an app and can accurately see where I am. That's a service I'd like Err bitreich.org 70 i 390 to use, but I don't want to wade through complex software and install Err bitreich.org 70 i 391 text only interfaces. That's too much for most people I think? Err bitreich.org 70 i 392 Err bitreich.org 70 i 393 C: Yes, no one will get attracted because of that. We do advocate that Err bitreich.org 70 i 394 every project should be reusable. If we talk about maps, there's a map Err bitreich.org 70 i 395 database, openstreetmap. There's someone that inputs all the maps into Err bitreich.org 70 i 396 the database, there's a program generating maps. Now someone can put a Err bitreich.org 70 i 397 text interface in front of the database to get to the same data. Not like Err bitreich.org 70 i 398 Facebook where data is hidden behind one web interface. If Facebook's Err bitreich.org 70 i 399 going out of business all the data is gone. So we say: re-usability. It Err bitreich.org 70 i 400 would be a huge waste to redo all this data. Err bitreich.org 70 i 401 Err bitreich.org 70 i 402 M: What's the reason we don't have data reusability today but big Err bitreich.org 70 i 403 companies that collect all the data and not a lot of small contributions Err bitreich.org 70 i 404 by people? After all the idea has been around for 20/30 years as well.. Err bitreich.org 70 i 405 Err bitreich.org 70 i 406 C: Consumption is the problem. What's left of our social structure is Err bitreich.org 70 i 407 the 'I want' and 'I get'. Everything in between the 'waiting', 'I need Err bitreich.org 70 i 408 to master this' has been lost to Hyper-capitalism. Err bitreich.org 70 i 409 Err bitreich.org 70 i 410 M: What do you think one can do about this? Is your attempt of focusing Err bitreich.org 70 i 411 on simple protocols trying to turn back the wheel of time a little or Err bitreich.org 70 i 412 changing it's direction a little? Err bitreich.org 70 i 413 Err bitreich.org 70 i 414 C: I cannot convert the whole world. That's impossible. It's about showing Err bitreich.org 70 i 415 a different way. Someday someone will come along and use all this because Err bitreich.org 70 i 416 it fits his needs. If I only have a generation of smartphone users that Err bitreich.org 70 i 417 never have touched a personal computer, then they need to know that Err bitreich.org 70 i 418 there's a cleaner and simpler way. Your hand does not have to get warm Err bitreich.org 70 i 419 when surfing the web. Err bitreich.org 70 i 420 Err bitreich.org 70 i 421 M: If I may exaggerate a little: We have had steam engines and horse Err bitreich.org 70 i 422 carriages back then, today's tools are a lot better, more efficient and Err bitreich.org 70 i 423 comfortable and enable us more? Err bitreich.org 70 i 424 Err bitreich.org 70 i 425 C: No! We beg to differ: Some of the old protocols could not reach Err bitreich.org 70 i 426 everyone due to technical problems. But now I have gigabit internet Err bitreich.org 70 i 427 connections and so on, content distribution over gopher is instant. You Err bitreich.org 70 i 428 will see a difference. Try moving the mouse on a current Microsoft Windows Err bitreich.org 70 i 429 machine and compare it to a Windows 95 device. The older machine will Err bitreich.org 70 i 430 be faster. There are less layers of abstraction at work, it's simpler. A Err bitreich.org 70 i 431 computer has to do some real work, not existing in pure theory, like in Err bitreich.org 70 i 432 a bureaucracy. It's about practicality and fun. Err bitreich.org 70 i 433 Err bitreich.org 70 i 434 M: Having fun with the computer is a recurring topic. Is this a central Err bitreich.org 70 i 435 point for you and your allies? Err bitreich.org 70 i 436 Err bitreich.org 70 i 437 C: Yes it is like in any other club out there. If it is no fun, why Err bitreich.org 70 i 438 go there? We are hobbyists, working 8-10 hours per day, then I need Err bitreich.org 70 i 439 a good reason for doing this. That may be why there's often rougher Err bitreich.org 70 i 440 communication happening. Maybe due to us being human and not service Err bitreich.org 70 i 441 staff. Then it may happen that we demand some signs of self help from Err bitreich.org 70 i 442 others. This is not a self-service shop but a hobby. If I want to be Err bitreich.org 70 i 443 part of that I have to do my share... Err bitreich.org 70 i 444 Err bitreich.org 70 i 445 Err bitreich.org 70 i 446 [radio jingle] Err bitreich.org 70 i 447 Err bitreich.org 70 i 448 M: Here's the ABS Magazin: Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales. Your magazine Err bitreich.org 70 i 449 about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt citizen radio. We Err bitreich.org 70 i 450 have talked about the gopher protocol, the simple way of exchanging text Err bitreich.org 70 i 451 over the internet. We will continue our talk with Christoph as there Err bitreich.org 70 i 452 are now some people that want to take care of the future development Err bitreich.org 70 i 453 of gopher. What's the current state of affairs and how to move on? That Err bitreich.org 70 i 454 will be one of the topics of an upcoming conference and we would like Err bitreich.org 70 i 455 to know what will happen there. What's it about? Err bitreich.org 70 i 456 Err bitreich.org 70 i 457 C: It's about 'bitreich con' or conference. That will take place next Err bitreich.org 70 i 458 Saturday and Sunday in Rodez, d partement Aveyron, South France as Err bitreich.org 70 i 459 there's a bitreich member living there. But you can also follow the Err bitreich.org 70 i 460 event online. There's the slides available on the gopher hole via ssh, Err bitreich.org 70 i 461 an audio stream via gopher and IRC chat. So everyone can participate. Err bitreich.org 70 i 462 Err bitreich.org 70 i 463 M: So one can listen to talks, the discussions and ask questions via Err bitreich.org 70 i 464 the IRC channel. Err bitreich.org 70 i 465 Err bitreich.org 70 i 466 C: Exactly! And your upper legs won't get burned while doing so. Err bitreich.org 70 i 467 Err bitreich.org 70 i 468 M: What's the schedule for the conference? Err bitreich.org 70 i 469 Err bitreich.org 70 i 470 C: On Saturday we will talk about bitreich and what has happened there. We Err bitreich.org 70 i 471 have made changes to our manifest, new members and projects. On Sunday we Err bitreich.org 70 i 472 will talk about gopher exclusively. A lot of Americans will be looking Err bitreich.org 70 i 473 forward to this as there hasn't been a gopher con in a long time. And Err bitreich.org 70 i 474 they are mostly part of the older gopher community. So this will be the Err bitreich.org 70 i 475 first time that we will all meet together again. Err bitreich.org 70 i 476 Err bitreich.org 70 i 477 M: And what will happen there? Will there be talks, programming sessions Err bitreich.org 70 i 478 or just a social event with discussions? Err bitreich.org 70 i 479 Err bitreich.org 70 i 480 C: The most important thing for gopher is that we restart a discussion Err bitreich.org 70 i 481 that has been dormant for the last years. We need some kind of team Err bitreich.org 70 i 482 spirit again. As I said we do have 300 gopher servers this year, last Err bitreich.org 70 i 483 year there have been 100. So there's an increase. The protocol itself Err bitreich.org 70 i 484 has some sharp edges and warts that need to be discussed as well to Err bitreich.org 70 i 485 define them in the future. Especially interaction between gopher and Err bitreich.org 70 i 486 the web is still undefined. And we want to establish a discussion panel, Err bitreich.org 70 i 487 to keep in touch with each other. Err bitreich.org 70 i 488 Err bitreich.org 70 i 489 M: You say there are 300 servers. What's on them? When I browsed through Err bitreich.org 70 i 490 them I have found a log of 'phlogs', something you would call a blog on Err bitreich.org 70 i 491 the web, right? Err bitreich.org 70 i 492 Err bitreich.org 70 i 493 C: Yes phlogs, just like blogs. There are many of then and there have Err bitreich.org 70 i 494 been a lot of new phlogs. Because distribution of content is so simple, Err bitreich.org 70 i 495 you upload your text and it's there to be read. Very simple, just as it Err bitreich.org 70 i 496 should be. There's nothing more that for a blog as well really. A lot of Err bitreich.org 70 i 497 people do this due to a retro chic, like enjoying it like in the good Err bitreich.org 70 i 498 old days, some also do it due to it's idea of simplicity. Let me open Err bitreich.org 70 i 499 up my slides for a talk I have prepared so I can tell you some services Err bitreich.org 70 i 500 that might be interested for newcomers in the gopher space. Err bitreich.org 70 i 501 Err bitreich.org 70 i 502 M: Gopher space is the whole part of the network, all servers running the Err bitreich.org 70 i 503 gopher protocol and all information on them? Just like the world wide web? Err bitreich.org 70 i 504 Err bitreich.org 70 i 505 C: Yes, that's what I mean by that. As an example we have the following Err bitreich.org 70 i 506 services: A gopher fronted for mastodon/GNU Social as an alternative Err bitreich.org 70 i 507 to Facebook. Then there's an interface for the pirate bay's search, Err bitreich.org 70 i 508 an Interface for YouTube (search only), Wikipedia, a search searx which Err bitreich.org 70 i 509 works like Google or duckduckgo but federated. Project Gutenberg, where Err bitreich.org 70 i 510 old books are collected and there's even a search fronted for Netflix. Err bitreich.org 70 i 511 Err bitreich.org 70 i 512 M: Those aren't static sites like text or audio or image files. But Err bitreich.org 70 i 513 there are interactive elements? Err bitreich.org 70 i 514 Err bitreich.org 70 i 515 C: That's included in the gopher protocol. It's a search feature where Err bitreich.org 70 i 516 you send a search request to a server and get a response back. That's Err bitreich.org 70 i 517 how it is used in the pirate bay search for example where I send a search Err bitreich.org 70 i 518 term and get back a list of torrents to download. Err bitreich.org 70 i 519 Err bitreich.org 70 i 520 M: That's not very different from websites… Err bitreich.org 70 i 521 Err bitreich.org 70 i 522 C: Oh yes, it's different! I have mentioned the structure imposed by Err bitreich.org 70 i 523 gopher before. The looks will always be the same. I have a list of menus Err bitreich.org 70 i 524 and links, which I can follow until there's a file behind it or more Err bitreich.org 70 i 525 information. On the web you'll often have trouble finding your content Err bitreich.org 70 i 526 due to all the ads. Err bitreich.org 70 i 527 Err bitreich.org 70 i 528 M: So the web currently is very heavy on graphics giving web designers a Err bitreich.org 70 i 529 lot of possibilities to create a page. And then there are factors that Err bitreich.org 70 i 530 have contributed to rising advertisements and the increasing resource Err bitreich.org 70 i 531 hunger of these websites. Wouldn't it also be a proposal to say: Let's Err bitreich.org 70 i 532 just use HTML 1.0 like in the beginning of the web? You'd get images and Err bitreich.org 70 i 533 links but no extra code execution via JavaScript. Is that in alignment Err bitreich.org 70 i 534 with your goals? Err bitreich.org 70 i 535 Err bitreich.org 70 i 536 C: I still have in mind what I have said about meta data and Tor. It would Err bitreich.org 70 i 537 be a step in the right direction but many have tried this and many many Err bitreich.org 70 i 538 have failed. That's a problem. The only thing you can do on the web to day Err bitreich.org 70 i 539 is to browse the mobile version of a site and suddenly it's accessible. Err bitreich.org 70 i 540 Err bitreich.org 70 i 541 M: When you say 'failed', who do you tell? Does that mean it's too Err bitreich.org 70 i 542 complicated to create even simple websites? Or did they fail because they Err bitreich.org 70 i 543 look old and too retro? How can you tell that their attempt has failed? Err bitreich.org 70 i 544 Err bitreich.org 70 i 545 C: It's the same problem why we won't see gopher taking over the Err bitreich.org 70 i 546 world. It's all too big. The same technology is everywhere but is seen Err bitreich.org 70 i 547 differently in India or Africa than here. Everyone has a different Err bitreich.org 70 i 548 knowledge level. The same is true for repairs. Knowledge gets lost. The Err bitreich.org 70 i 549 current generation does not do this. It's important to show them that it Err bitreich.org 70 i 550 can be different, it's about preserving that knowledge. Err bitreich.org 70 i 551 Err bitreich.org 70 i 552 M: With repairs you are referring to the ability to repair your own Err bitreich.org 70 i 553 devices because they are designed in a simple way? Err bitreich.org 70 i 554 Err bitreich.org 70 i 555 C: Yes, but there's more to that today. We are in an era of 3D printing Err bitreich.org 70 i 556 where Airbus will get 40% of the parts for an airplane out of a 3D Err bitreich.org 70 i 557 printer. If done right we can do this also for the end user. Err bitreich.org 70 i 558 Err bitreich.org 70 i 559 M: So the HTML 1.0 revival has been an interesting idea from your point of Err bitreich.org 70 i 560 view but it's not really suited to keep to simple and essential protocols? Err bitreich.org 70 i 561 Err bitreich.org 70 i 562 C: The problem with web development is that it's just piling up Err bitreich.org 70 i 563 layers of software. There's JavaScript on top of JavaScript on top of Err bitreich.org 70 i 564 JavaScript. The same is true for all commercial development. Why is it Err bitreich.org 70 i 565 the hobbyists that have to take care of simplification? Everyone lives Err bitreich.org 70 i 566 in their own filter bubble and as long as there's profit there's no need Err bitreich.org 70 i 567 for change. That's a problem and that's why we have to show a new way Err bitreich.org 70 i 568 as an alternative. Err bitreich.org 70 i 569 Err bitreich.org 70 i 570 M: If I keep piling up layers upon layers and build it so that I can Err bitreich.org 70 i 571 still access the older layers then that's surely an advantage? To be Err bitreich.org 70 i 572 able to continuously carry on work while being backwards compatible Err bitreich.org 70 i 573 without making hard cuts where old content will not work anymore - Err bitreich.org 70 i 574 Err bitreich.org 70 i 575 C: That's a totally different problem: Take archive.org, the people Err bitreich.org 70 i 576 trying to archive the web. They have huge problems scraping modern Err bitreich.org 70 i 577 web pages trying to find content and archive it. That's due to the core Err bitreich.org 70 i 578 problem of us not using text anymore. That has to be solved. We use Err bitreich.org 70 i 579 abstractions not text. Err bitreich.org 70 i 580 Err bitreich.org 70 i 581 M: Currently when using HTML, text files are transferred. Or are you Err bitreich.org 70 i 582 fearing that there's just binary data exchanged in the future, to present Err bitreich.org 70 i 583 you an image containing text? Err bitreich.org 70 i 584 Err bitreich.org 70 i 585 C: That's really happening at the moment, it's called web assembly. So Err bitreich.org 70 i 586 there's binary programs being executed in the browser which further Err bitreich.org 70 i 587 complicates it all. This also implies more access to the computer Err bitreich.org 70 i 588 hardware, another issue we have been warning about since Snowden. It Err bitreich.org 70 i 589 will get a lot worse. Err bitreich.org 70 i 590 Err bitreich.org 70 i 591 M: That sounds pretty fatalistic, the web is a lost cause and cannot be Err bitreich.org 70 i 592 saved. Is it really that bleak? Err bitreich.org 70 i 593 Err bitreich.org 70 i 594 C: It will get more complex and nontransparent. I cannot see it Err bitreich.org 70 i 595 differently. The developments of the last 20 years have been going in Err bitreich.org 70 i 596 this direction. We currently have only 3 web browsers left, that's also Err bitreich.org 70 i 597 a sign. With gopher one can implement a client in a couple of minutes Err bitreich.org 70 i 598 in virtually any programming language. There are only 3 browsers left Err bitreich.org 70 i 599 because not a single person will manage to write another one in their Err bitreich.org 70 i 600 lifetime. That's impossible with current standards. Err bitreich.org 70 i 601 Err bitreich.org 70 i 602 M: Do you have to recreate everything from scratch? Isn't it a Err bitreich.org 70 i 603 possibility to stand on the shoulders of giants and do great things Err bitreich.org 70 i 604 with that? Otherwise we will again have to solve the same problems with Err bitreich.org 70 i 605 primitive tooling that have been solver already. Err bitreich.org 70 i 606 Err bitreich.org 70 i 607 C: That's the same argument we have already had. The world's too big. We Err bitreich.org 70 i 608 offer one proposal how to make things simpler. Sometimes it gets picked Err bitreich.org 70 i 609 up, sometimes it isn't. But it's about spreading this idea: It's possible Err bitreich.org 70 i 610 to make it simpler! There are many people out there doing simple web Err bitreich.org 70 i 611 pages but total and absolute simplicity will not happen. If we'd all use Err bitreich.org 70 i 612 the same web browser for example we'd also have all the same security Err bitreich.org 70 i 613 flaws. That's another point: With Linux everyone can build their own Err bitreich.org 70 i 614 system and is independent. Like with natural selection mono culture makes Err bitreich.org 70 i 615 us fallible to the same virus. Err bitreich.org 70 i 616 Err bitreich.org 70 i 617 M: You say: We need to experiment, we need to be diverse we need to create Err bitreich.org 70 i 618 things as we want them as users which is not the same as companies would Err bitreich.org 70 i 619 like to design web pages and our communications. Err bitreich.org 70 i 620 Err bitreich.org 70 i 621 C: Companies may do what they want, once they see that people use our Err bitreich.org 70 i 622 things because they are fun… as it is happening at Microsoft, they Err bitreich.org 70 i 623 switch over to Linux because Linux is fun and they are having trouble Err bitreich.org 70 i 624 finding developers that do Microsoft. That's why Microsoft is developing Err bitreich.org 70 i 625 a Linux subsystem and is porting Linux software to it. Because there's Err bitreich.org 70 i 626 no one who wants to work with this tedious and boring Microsoft stuff. Err bitreich.org 70 i 627 Err bitreich.org 70 i 628 M: Really? I have got the impression that windows is widespread in Err bitreich.org 70 i 629 industry applications where software is available for windows only. Or Err bitreich.org 70 i 630 in the games industry where a x86 windows platform is the prime one and Err bitreich.org 70 i 631 Windows the tool of choice. Err bitreich.org 70 i 632 Err bitreich.org 70 i 633 C: That depends on your point of view! Linux has simply won! Err bitreich.org 70 i 634 Err bitreich.org 70 i 635 M: *laughs* Err bitreich.org 70 i 636 Err bitreich.org 70 i 637 C: Take the smartphone: 90% is running Linux and there are whole Err bitreich.org 70 i 638 generations of people in Africa that use their phones as their sole Err bitreich.org 70 i 639 device. Those are all Linux users. Industry and commerce applications Err bitreich.org 70 i 640 are niche products and niches move very slowly. Maybe we'll see a change Err bitreich.org 70 i 641 there in 20-30 years. And that's the point: Now we have the possibility, Err bitreich.org 70 i 642 now that there are no developers for Microsoft that do it with all their Err bitreich.org 70 i 643 heart, it's all about passion anyway, then we have people here on the Err bitreich.org 70 i 644 other hand, that switch all over to Linux. Microsoft is supporting docker, Err bitreich.org 70 i 645 they even distribute their own Linux images for their cloud service. Linux Err bitreich.org 70 i 646 has won. Err bitreich.org 70 i 647 Err bitreich.org 70 i 648 M: You said that in some countries the desktop is irrelevant now, a Err bitreich.org 70 i 649 smartphone more important. Do you think that's a development that will Err bitreich.org 70 i 650 also reach us? Will the smartphone replace the laptop? Err bitreich.org 70 i 651 Err bitreich.org 70 i 652 C: I can simply tell you an observation: We have had a village festival Err bitreich.org 70 i 653 here the other day and all the young ladies where sitting there using Err bitreich.org 70 i 654 their smartphone. Err bitreich.org 70 i 655 Err bitreich.org 70 i 656 M: Okay... Err bitreich.org 70 i 657 Err bitreich.org 70 i 658 C: That's a sign isn't it! Err bitreich.org 70 i 659 Err bitreich.org 70 i 660 M: I see that you have a clear picture in mind… How's the reach of Err bitreich.org 70 i 661 your project with gopher, IRC and alternative social networks. Do you Err bitreich.org 70 i 662 see any international recognition? Or is it more some experiment of Err bitreich.org 70 i 663 people in the industrial nations? Err bitreich.org 70 i 664 Err bitreich.org 70 i 665 C: Americans, as these are the old Gents that have been tinkering with Err bitreich.org 70 i 666 gopher in the old days, but there is also a wide reach in Europe. I have Err bitreich.org 70 i 667 seen a world map yesterday containing all the gopher servers. There Err bitreich.org 70 i 668 have been 3 in Africa, Japan has had a couple, Asia… there are Err bitreich.org 70 i 669 interested people everywhere. I know 2 enthusiasts from Argentina through Err bitreich.org 70 i 670 bitreich. We are international, English is our language as we are small. Err bitreich.org 70 i 671 Err bitreich.org 70 i 672 M: Is there a way to access gopher on smartphones? Err bitreich.org 70 i 673 Err bitreich.org 70 i 674 C: Proxies are the easiest way, seconded by 'overbite'. That's a gopher Err bitreich.org 70 i 675 plugin for browsers made by Cameron Kaiser, an American developer. He has Err bitreich.org 70 i 676 build solutions for Firefox and Chromium. You can find this through your Err bitreich.org 70 i 677 web browser. There are also graphical clients but those you'll have to Err bitreich.org 70 i 678 build yourself, so that's not suitable for beginners. But it's the same Err bitreich.org 70 i 679 as on the desktop: The advanced users have their command line where they Err bitreich.org 70 i 680 can run any of the command line clients, as it is a Linux system. And Err bitreich.org 70 i 681 the people specialized on the web can access it through a proxy. So Err bitreich.org 70 i 682 there's accessibility on all levels including 'backwards' compatibility. Err bitreich.org 70 i 683 Err bitreich.org 70 i 684 M: You'll have your conference soon, where you will exchange ideas. Will Err bitreich.org 70 i 685 there be a way to read up on this later? Err bitreich.org 70 i 686 Err bitreich.org 70 i 687 C: Yes the recordings and slides will be available online. Err bitreich.org 70 i 688 Err bitreich.org 70 i 689 M: Being available online is the right clue! You all know that Err bitreich.org 70 i 690 you can listen to all of episodes of the ABS Magazin on our website Err bitreich.org 70 i 691 absmagazin.de. There you can listen again to how this all works, have a Err bitreich.org 70 i 692 look at the show notes where we will put in all the links that have been Err bitreich.org 70 i 693 mentioned on the show. Err bitreich.org 70 i 694 Err bitreich.org 70 i 695 You have been listening to this week's episode of the ABS Magazine. You Err bitreich.org 70 i 696 have seen that there are many possibilities and a lot of them you can Err bitreich.org 70 i 697 use for yourself, to create your information channels as you want them Err bitreich.org 70 i 698 to be. Thanks for being with us, thanks for listening! You can join Err bitreich.org 70 i 699 us again next week at 4pm on radio-x, 91,8MHz your Frankfurt citizen Err bitreich.org 70 i 700 radio. So long! Err bitreich.org 70 i 701 Err bitreich.org 70 i 702 Err bitreich.org 70 i 703 # Corrigenda Err bitreich.org 70 i 704 Err bitreich.org 70 i 705 [1] The german word for gopher is 'Taschenratte', not 'Maulwurf'. Err bitreich.org 70 i 706 Err bitreich.org 70 i 707 [2] Gopher was developed at the UMN, not the MIT. Err bitreich.org 70 i 708 Err bitreich.org 70 .