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TIL that Denzel Washington and Quentin Tarantino had a years long feud
over Washington's belief that Tarantino added racist dialogue to
CrimsonTide.
(URL) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Tide_(film)#:~:text=Tarantino%2... (https://en.wikipedia.org)
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|u/Emoney19124 - 1 month
|
|I was not aware Tarantino had anything to do with Crimson Tide…
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|he was a script doctor on it.
|u/JExmoor - 1 month
|
|I was curious what other movies Tarantino was a script doctor on and
|I could find only one other, but [boy is it a doozy.
|](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Pat)
|u/KayJayWhy - 1 month
|
|Back in the 90s, Two high school friends and I rented “It’s Pat”
|knowing the tidbit about the script having passed through
|Tarantino’s hands. The one line of dialogue we identified as
|potentially coming from from him was during a brief scene in which
|Pat is working as a radio therapist, or at a suicide hotline or
|something. The caller says something along the lines of “I can’t
|stop thinking about killing myself. I’ve thought about overdosing,
|jumping off a building, shooting myself…” Pat replies “have you
|considered drowning? I hear it’s like God giving you a big, wet
|hug!”
|u/irockthecatbox - 1 month
|
|Wow 62k box office against an 8 mil budget
|u/KFCConspiracy - 1 month
|
|Sounds like the bealastock and blum would love it
|u/Grumplogic - 1 month
|
|It was so bad it made Ween quit acting.
|u/Historical_Invite241 - 1 month
|
|Less than the average salary!
|u/Phila4266 - 1 month
|
|Wikipedia states the budget was $53M and box office was $157.4M…
|u/Phila4266 - 1 month
|
|Sorry…my mistake….you’re referring to “It’s Pat”….
|u/csaliture - 1 month
|
|My understanding is he played a pretty large role in fixing the
|script for The Rock, also uncredited. Before he came on board,
|Arnold Schwarzenegger was originally attached to play the role of
|Stanley Goodspeed, but dropped out because he didn't believe in
|the script. Outside of The Rock and Crimson Tide, Quinten has
|uncredited writing credits in Past Midnight, Four Rooms, From Dusk
|till Dawn, and True Romance.
|u/TheMostUnclean - 1 month
|
|True Romance is one of my favorite movies of all time &
|Tarantino is absolutely credited as writer. It was Roger Avary,
|who also worked with Tarantino on Pulp Fiction and Reservoir
|Dogs, that was uncredited.
|u/csaliture - 1 month
|
|After looking it up he is literally the only credited writer
|on From Dusk Till Dawn so take my comment with a grain of
|salt. I'm confident he wrote for all of those but I didn't
|double check whether he's credited in all of them or not.
|u/TheMostUnclean - 1 month
|
|I’m just going by the credits on my AppleTV library and IMDB
|which have him credited as the sole writer. There’s also
|Natural Born Killers. His original script for that was so
|heavily edited by Oliver Stone that he only took a story
|credit.
|u/Disgruntled_Oldguy - 1 month
|
|Fun Fact: NBK was suppossed to be the book the dude in
|True Romance was writing.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|naw it was what was in the briefcase
|u/el_rompo - 1 month
|
|Four Rooms is a collaboration between 4 different directors
|with each contributing a story regarding one of the titular
|rooms. From Dusk Till Dawn was also a collab of Tarantino
|and Rodriguez, one of them wanted a gangster movie and one
|wanted a vampire one.
|u/DjScenester - 1 month
|
|He wrote “True Romance” and “Natural Born Killers” and sold
|both screenplays before he wrote and directed “Reservoir
|Dogs”. True Romance had some minor changes… Made linear,
|hero lives etc but that script is all Tarantino…
|u/LargeVernon - 1 month
|
|You're Sicilian huh?
|u/EnemyWombatant - 1 month
|
|Tarantino was clearly a writer for the last three you mentioned.
|Not sure what you mean by uncredited.
|u/meifreewill - 1 month
|
|Yeah
|u/csaliture - 1 month
|
|I was thinking of movies I knew he wrote for but didn't
|direct. I am wrong about most of those that he wasn't
|credited.
|u/coolpapa2282 - 1 month
|
|I think many script doctors fly under the radar, probably
|partially because you don't want word of your script needing to
|be fixed to get out to the press.
|u/zgtc - 1 month
|
|Less that you don’t want anyone knowing, more that the rules
|around granting credit specifically preclude anyone who makes
|relatively minor changes. There’s a minimum of 33% of the
|final script, and a maximum number of creditable writers, so
|script doctors are going in with the expectation that they
|won’t be credited.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|Carrie Fisher was also a well known script doctor
|u/jthaih - 1 month
|
|Definitely made sure to write himself drinking tequila off Salma
|Hayek’s foot. 😂
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|> Four Rooms, From Dusk till Dawn, and True Romance. I always
|assumed he wrote and directed his chapter of four rooms. FDTD
|and True Romance, i thought he wrote and co directed FDTD?
|u/DragonHateReddit - 1 month
|
|From Dusk till Dawn is a 1996 American action horror film
|directed by Robert Rodriguez and written by Quentin Tarantino
|from a concept and story by Robert Kurtzman. True
|Romance[a] is a 1993 American romantic crime film directed
|by Tony Scott and written by Quentin Tarantino.
|u/herrcollin - 1 month
|
|I rewatched the rock recently and I swear to god I saw a silver
|surfer poster somewhere. May be confusing it with other movies
|though
|u/neon_meate - 1 month
|
|The Kirby Silver Surfer or the Moebius Silver Surfer?
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|there is only Kirby Silver Surfer
|u/trimonkeys - 1 month
|
|Uncredited for True Romance? He’s the films only credited
|screenwriter.
|u/johann_burgers - 1 month
|
|Tarantino is the credited screenwriter for both From Dusk till
|Dawn and True Romance. True romance is great. I know he did Four
|Rooms too.
|u/Interesting_Walk_747 - 1 month
|
|You can add Natural Born Killers to that list and From Dusk till
|Dawn started as a Tales from The Crypt episode script. He also
|cast George Clooney in From Dusk till Dawn because Taranto
|directed at least one ER episode and liked the Clooney putting
|people into the emergency room instead of saving them in the
|emergency room.
|u/Halvus_I - 1 month
|
|> Natural Born Killers Tarantino did the screenplay, but says
|that Oliver Stone got it all wrong. He never even saw the full
|movie.
|u/Interesting_Walk_747 - 1 month
|
|Yeah "story by" but he really created the story and script
|that was then edited and tweaked to the point he didn't want
|the Written by credit.
|u/cinnapear - 1 month
|
|He’s literally the writer of all the latter movies you
|mentioned.
|u/THElaytox - 1 month
|
|He's credited for True Romance, From Dusk Til Dawn, and Natural
|Born Killers, he sold the scripts off cause no producer would
|agree to allow him to direct them. They were supposed to tie
|into Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. He's also credited in
|Four Rooms as one of the four writers/directors.
|u/Eroom2013 - 1 month
|
|True Romance was his script that he sold. He told the director
|that he envisions Steve buscemi as the lead, that was the last
|time he shared an opinion with the director.
|u/InsidiousColossus - 1 month
|
|As others have said, True Romance was completely a Tarantino
|script and he was credited for it. When he was an unknown he
|wrote 2 scripts, True Romance and Reservoir Dogs. He convinced
|the studios to let him direct Reservoir Dogs, but in exchange he
|had to let Tony Scott direct True Romance.
|u/diverareyouokay - 1 month
|
|You left out a total turd of a movie - “It’s Pat”, which cost 8
|mil and earned 62k, and has a 0% on rotten tomatoes.
|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Pat
|u/robotomatic - 1 month
|
|Who is upvoting this nonsense?
|u/SpoonBendingChampion - 1 month
|
|Lmao that's amazing. Never in a million years...
|u/DeaderthanZed - 1 month
|
|The interview cited by wiki is a pretty interesting view into
|American culture 30 years ago. Discussion of gender roles,
|cultural identity, and guns. And more importantly, Mexican
|standoffs!
|u/LosPer - 1 month
|
|She had a small but memorable role in Pulp Fiction...
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|oh shit i forgot they made that movie.
|u/reptilesocks - 1 month
|
|Rewatched It’s Pat recently. Honestly? Fantastic film.
|u/yoyoyouoyouo - 1 month
|
|Tarantino, certified Ween fan.
|u/broadwayallday - 1 month
|
|The Rock
|u/cheguevaraandroid1 - 1 month
|
|Two appearances for Ween in that movie. What a choice.
|u/bilboafromboston - 1 month
|
|Lots more of this than you think. They usually keep it secret.
|u/unWildBill - 1 month
|
|That is Monster Joe’s daughter, Raquel!
|u/Darmok47 - 1 month
|
|Julia Sweeney was in Pulp Fiction (the junkyard owner's daughter
|who goes to breakfast with The Wolf) so I assume her and Tarantino
|are somehow friends.
|u/neon_meate - 1 month
|
|I said, the Kirby Silver Surfer was the only real Silver Surfer. And
|that the Moebius Silver Surfer was shit.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|Cut shot to feet
|u/djguerito - 1 month
|
|TIL!
|u/MountainJuice - 1 month
|
|Go back and rewatch it now you know. It’s very easy to see parts he
|added. Like the mini subplot of the two guys fighting over the Silver
|Surfer. There’s also dialogue at the start of a guy gushing over a
|great western movie and actor.
|u/ShutterBun - 1 month
|
|They’re having a discussion about movies that take place in
|submarines.
|u/Pretty_Eater - 1 month
|
|Also the scene where Washington rubs Hackmans feet.
|u/KindBob - 1 month
|
|He’s got his technique down and everything, he don’t be ticklin’
|or nothin’
|u/FerociousGiraffe - 1 month
|
|He’s the foot fuckin’ master
|u/MechanicalTurkish - 1 month
|
|Everybody who reads comic books knows that the Kirby Silver Surfer
|is the only true Silver Surfer.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|Kirby is GOAT
|u/deaconxblues - 1 month
|
|Right. That’s my TIL from this
|u/mulsanneroadkill - 1 month
|
|Same
|u/Eroom2013 - 1 month
|
|I don’t remember which super hero Denzel talks about, but that scene
|makes more sense now, doesn’t it?
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|Jack Kirby being the best artist of Silver Surfer, and a bunch of
|references to Scotty
|u/orangutanDOTorg - 1 month
|
|I was confused a sec bc I mixed up the movie with Red October
|u/shebeogden - 1 month
|
|Ohhhhhhh that makes more sense.
|u/evanod - 1 month
|
|I think you mean it makes more shensh
|u/douglau5 - 1 month
|
|r/shubreddit
|u/vasdak - 1 month
|
|I'd like to see le tits now, it's French.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|one ping only
|u/RhythmSectionWantAd - 1 month
|
|Let them shing
|u/taisui - 1 month
|
|He didn't even try to put on an Rushian acshent.
|u/RhythmSectionWantAd - 1 month
|
|And it's still awesome.
|u/MechanicalTurkish - 1 month
|
|When you have the Sean Connery acshent, you don't need any
|other.
|u/unWildBill - 1 month
|
|Comrade Moneypenny
|u/orangutanDOTorg - 1 month
|
|It works for Russian and Egyptian/Spanish
|u/unWildBill - 1 month
|
|Do you know how hard it is to find a Scottish Russian
|dictionary?
|u/MorningAfterBurrito - 1 month
|
|I mustache you a question, but I’m shaving it for later.
|u/CaptainJambalaya - 1 month
|
|What book?
|u/MillerLitesaber - 1 month
|
|I wonder what would have happened if he mailed the diary to the
|Marx brothers
|u/whatwhat83 - 1 month
|
|The one movie I like more than the book.
|u/SilverdSabre - 1 month
|
|They feel so different despite being the same story. The book is
|much more of a political drama that focuses on the cold war actions
|the USSR and NATO would take in the theoretical wargame. The movie
|is more of a spy action flick centered around hunting Red October. I
|like them both for different reasons.
|u/whatwhat83 - 1 month
|
|My main gripe with the book are how annoying every character is.
|Jack Ryan is the ultimate bad ass first in his class genius blah
|blah blah. Jonsie went to MIT and was the best ever! The sub
|captain (whose name im blanking on) was the best too at everything
|sub related! Could we please have one normal character who had
|some flaws? How do I relate to these people?
|u/some_random_guy_u_no - 1 month
|
|Bart Mancuso.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|that's his boat!
|u/SilverdSabre - 1 month
|
|I agree. Hardly anything goes wrong for the Americans except for
|a helicopter crash to put our main hero in the action. Not much
|goes right for the Soviets. A little less American bias would be
|nice.
|u/unWildBill - 1 month
|
|All Tom Clancy is like this
|u/Bacon4Lyf - 1 month
|
|Why would you relate to Cold War sub commanders regardless of if
|they had flaws or not?
|u/whatwhat83 - 1 month
|
|The lord of the rings is about elves and wizards and hobbits
|and shit and, yet, there are relatable characters who aren't
|perfect at everything they do as the protagonists. Novel
|concept, I know.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|wait til you read the books about Jack Ryan's son!
|u/epochellipse - 1 month
|
|The Godfather should be the other movie.
|u/whatwhat83 - 1 month
|
|Never read the book
|u/Notmydirtyalt - 1 month
|
|You should, has an entire chapter dedicated to surgery to
|tighten vaginal walls and the fact Sonny Corleone had a big
|dick. No, I will not be elaborating further.
|u/fieldsofanfieldroad - 1 month
|
|Shrek
|u/Kjartanski - 1 month
|
|I really like the British characters in Red October and Red Storm
|Rising
|u/Dice_to_see_you - 1 month
|
|Jaws I also found to be a better movie than book. 
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|adding Jaws and Live and let die. Also Justified the TV show
|(ignore the one they did last year to shoe horn him into a great
|book) Raylon in the show is way better than he is in the short
|story the show is based on, or any of hi individual books.
|u/meifreewill - 1 month
|
|It makes more sense
|u/Wideawakedup - 1 month
|
|lol I was like “wasn’t Alec Baldwin in this?”
|u/teddyKGB- - 1 month
|
|I was confused with your confusion and thought you said October Sky
|u/SugarSweetSonny - 1 month
|
|IIRC, the biggest problem Washington had was not just the racial
|dialogue but how it changed the captains character. Now the character
|had a racist implication that Washington didn't want added or something
|to that effect. Basically that whole scene with the horses changes the
|movie and the character of the captain and everything else and
|Washington had NOT signed up for that. He liked the script the way it
|originally was (and I think part of his anger was because the script was
|changed because he was a black actor and now they added a racial
|component). I kind of get that. I mean we are now debating if the
|captain was racist or not, which was something that Washington didn't
|want to have in the movie at all.
|u/EmuCanoe - 1 month
|
|Washington is a very clever guy and has very specific views on what is
|and isn’t racism. To him, the racism is the adding of a racial subplot
|that wasn’t there and didn’t need to be there and detracted from the
|core balance of power thriller simple because the two characters were
|of different races. Like a black guy can’t have a leading role in a
|military authority thriller without being victimised over racism?
|That’s the real racism.
|u/SugarSweetSonny - 1 month
|
|You said it a waaay better way then I did. IIRC, that was EXACTLY
|the beef he had with Tarantino. That the dialogue got changed (and
|those lines added) because he was a black actor. That if he had
|been a white actor, it wouldn't have been part of the movie and that
|it changed the tone of the film in a way he didn't want. I remember
|reading that he wasn't just a little angry either, he was furious
|and there were words exchanged with him and Tarantino.
|u/flynnhicks03 - 1 month
|
|I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but the OPs comments
|immediately made me think of the horse story. And looking back it
|maybe did seem to come out of nowhere. This was the comment I was
|looking for.
|u/alottanamesweretaken - 1 month
|
|Denzel is one of those people that if he was mad at or disappointed in
|me, I would be devastated
|u/DINNERTIME_CUNT - 1 month
|
|*Not* my man…
|u/blueguy211 - 1 month
|
|I cant believe I let Nas(Denzel) down
|u/Vegan_Harvest - 1 month
|
|It's harder to believe he didn't.
|u/kafelta - 1 month
|
|It kinda feels like he's obsessed with doing it, after he got a pass a
|few times.
|u/KarlPHungus - 1 month
|
|Just to play Devil's advocate, making the antagonist say racist
|things doesn't make the writer racist, does it? I mean, the
|antagonist is supposed to do/say bad shit. That's what an antagonist
|does....does anyone ever accuse the writers of Schindler's List of
|being racist against Jews because they wrote Ralph Fiennes'
|character the way they did?
|u/Ape-ril - 1 month
|
|There are things directors become known for after putting it in
|their movies like feet being in Tarantino movies and the N word,
|among other things.
|u/Alertcircuit - 1 month
|
|No but there's a prominent enough pattern of white people saying
|the n word throughout his movies, that one could safely
|hypothesize that Tarantino just really likes the n word. He might
|not even actually be racist, but he clearly likes writing that
|word.
|u/Marsium - 1 month
|
|i think tarantino likes being transgressive in his movies. all
|of his films have a lot of shock value somewhere in the runtime,
|like the gimp scene in pulp fiction or the opening scene with
|the milkman in inglourious basterds. the n-word, and racism in
|general, is a very transgressive inclusion to a movie. i think
|that’s the reason he “likes the word.”
|u/Misery_Division - 1 month
|
|Yeah for sure, Tarantino has an edgelord aesthetic that works
|really well in his movies and imo that's what makes him a top
|artist. Art shouldn't be censored even if it makes people
|angry. I don't think he's racist (or a violent person or an
|antisemite), he just loves creating controversy and revels in
|it, probably gets a boner too lol
|u/KarlPHungus - 1 month
|
|I agree
|u/Gardenheadx - 1 month
|
|Additionally it just kind of comes off as lazy. Okay, antagonist
|is also racist as well as being evil, but how does that affect
|their character/the film. I feel like sometimes in his films it
|just feels tacked on, while in others it works, like in Django
|for example
|u/Ambitious_Ear_91 - 1 month
|
|Antagonist is not the same as villain.
|u/BeefistPrime - 1 month
|
|> I mean, the antagonist is supposed to do/say bad shit. No, not
|necessarily. The antagonist just has conflict with the
|protagonist. It doesn't mean he's a bad guy. And the whole theme
|of Crimson Tide is that neither man was right or wrong (even
|though the audience is sympathetic to XO, those more informed
|about nuclear strategy and military procedures are probably more
|inclined to support the captain) and it's a complex question with
|incomplete information. There was no reason at all for the captain
|to be evil - he could simply be coming to his conclusion through
|different priorities.
|u/estofaulty - 1 month
|
|You’re talking about a writer who loves the N word. Do you really
|think it’s just a coincidence? Like, come on. Three is a pattern
|and we’re at like 17 now.
|u/Prit717 - 1 month
|
|Isn’t he the one writing it in and subsequently playing the
|antagonist that says it tho?
|u/TumbleWeed_64 - 1 month
|
|Please tell me you don't think Schindler's List is a work of
|fiction? Fiennes' character is a real Nazi war criminal so he'd be
|expected to act that way. Tarantino has entirely fictional
|protagonists, antagonists and people in between using the N-word,
|sometimes warranted, a lot of times not.
|u/KarlPHungus - 1 month
|
|That's a totally fair point. I didn't even consider that. He
|was just the first overtly racist person in a movie that popped
|into my simple head. Fine, Edward Norton in American History X.
|Do you think the writers of that film are racist because the
|main character drops a SLEW of racist dialogue? I mean, how
|many Jewish slurs alone does he drop?
|u/squeak37 - 1 month
|
|Context is king. Some Tarantino movies it makes sense
|(Django), so it's not a problem there. The usage in reservoir
|dogs? Not really as necessary, almost feels like he's throwing
|it in because he can. If Ed Norton was blasting Jews in
|fight club it'd be questionable, but in a movie about a
|misguided youth being brought up a fascist? It makes sense so
|it gets a pass.
|u/KarlPHungus - 1 month
|
|That's a good point. Knowing Tarantino it's just for shock
|value but I don't know what's in his heart. I just don't
|like people calling the man racist when there is not one
|shred of proof of that kind of behavior in real life. That's
|a dangerous precedent. Fuck, is Snoop Dogg a woman hating
|misogynist because of his lyrics? He says WAY worse shit
|about women in his own songs than Tarantino ever said about
|POC as a fictional character. Something to think about. I
|mean, it would have been interesting if a female gold medal
|winner asked him on air "Are bitches just ho's and tricks
|even if they won a gold fucking medal?"
|u/squeak37 - 1 month
|
|Oh right, I wasn't calling him a racist tbh, more an
|edgelord if anything. I also wouldn't be shocked if it
|turned out he was a racist though, considering the above.
|u/contrabardus - 1 month
|
|It's never portrayed as positive. Also, most of his movies are very
|much of their period, and that's literally how people like the
|characters would actually talk. You don't hear people talk that way
|near as much as you used to, but when I was younger I very much
|heard a lot of people talk like they do in Tarantino movies and
|casually drop stuff like that into conversations. I'm not that much
|younger than him. Granted most people don't monologue like they do
|in one of his movies, but it's accurate enough given the context.
|It's accurate and true to life for what it is and when the movies
|are set. I don't ever recall being shocked or surprised by the
|placement of the use of racist dialogue in any of his movies. It
|always fits with who is saying it as something someone like them
|would say in the situation. It's never out of place or doesn't
|make sense, and isn't there "just to be there". It's what people
|like the characters would be saying in the sorts of conversations
|they are having exactly how they use it. That's why Tarantino "gets
|a pass" for it. He's using it correctly in the context of the
|characters and scenes, not portraying it positively, and the use of
|it makes sense. It's not there to be "shocking" it's there because
|that's how people like the characters would have been talking in the
|periods and places the movies are set within the context of the
|characters and conversations. Again, it's never portrayed as
|positive. The entire point is to show casual racism as a negative
|because the people doing it are terrible people who would be
|behaving that way in real life.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|I dunno... his speech in Pulp Fiction? Doesn't exactly fit with
|what you're saying here imo.
|u/contrabardus - 1 month
|
|Yeah, it does. The 90s was not as progressive an era as a lot
|of people like to think. You'd hear people talking like that all
|the time. It wasn't the 60s or anything, but the kinds of
|people the characters in that movie were would very much be
|speaking that way at the time. The 80s and 90s were really just
|the beginning of modern sensibilities regarding that kind of
|speech in media and most of society.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|In your opinion. But out of all the instances in Tarantinos
|work, that one is certainly *not* at the top of the
|justification argument- no? Like if "yes of course slave
|owners will say the n word and that will make us hate them
|because they deserve to be hated" is highest on the
|justification scale, think about pulp fiction. That
|character does not need to be hated, isn't prompted to be
|hated, and we have no pre existing relationship with that
|character. There isn't anything particularly coded about this
|guy either. It's not like, "oh he's a rural working class
|farmer, he says it but doesn't mean anything by it" or "he's
|an old man from another generation, he's just out of his
|element". There's not much good justification laid out for
|it narratively- before or retroactively after. Especially
|considering it's a real repeated hit- not like a throwaway one
|off. The only thing left here is "people talked like that
|then". First, just to establish here- it isn't a depiction
|*of* the 90s. It's a movie that was made *in* the 90s. Now, to
|your point, yes it was a different time. To the fact that this
|movie went by and was a big hit and Tarantino didn't really
|get heat from this. Obviously wouldn't be the case today. But
|that doesn't mean people had *no* problem with it. Perhaps, I
|dunno, some *black* people may not have appreciated it? Even
|if they weren't necessarily picketing and making a huge deal
|out of it. Maybe... Denzel Washington was one of those people?
|The cherry on top being that Taratino delivers this himself.
|So, his depiction of an every day man of the 90s, someone like
|him, to the degree that *he plays him*, is someone who drops n
|bombs repeatedly... like yeah maybe Denzel looks at the rest
|of Quentins work in a certain kind of way after that.
|u/contrabardus - 1 month
|
|No. It's not a matter of opinion. It is a fact that people
|talked that way back then, and Pulp Fiction is a true
|representation for how people like the characters portrayed
|in it spoke outside of the monologue element. It's a story
|about the criminal underworld and shady terrible people with
|broken morality. There is no "justification scale"
|regarding accurate appropriate dialogue for a character that
|isn't out of place for who they are in the movie. The movie
|was both made in and set in the 90s, so that argument isn't
|valid. The technology and setting firmly place it as modern
|at the time. It was made to represent "now" at the time, and
|the entire point was that none of those people were good
|people. Tarantino was not playing a character that was
|supposed to be the voice of wisdom and reason. He was a
|scumbag and the audience was supposed to think so. A small
|man with a big mouth with unpleasant views. He's not
|supposed to be appreciated. Movies aren't supposed to be
|showing everything as pleasant and acceptable. Sometimes the
|intention is to show unpleasant and uncomfortable things,
|and it wasn't glorified. It's stupid to get upset about a
|character that is supposed to be unpleasant and racist
|behaving that way. Tarantino wasn't trying to be "cool" he
|was vilifying and speaking against that kind of behavior by
|showing how ugly and unpleasant it is. People who get
|offended by a movie doing that are morons. Tarantino has
|never portrayed racism in anything but a negative light. As
|far as I know, Denzel didn't have a problem with Tarantino's
|work outside of Crimson Tide. Dude made Training Day, so
|he's not shy about harsh subject matter. He just felt that
|the dialogue change **in that movie** didn't fit and was out
|of place. That is a matter of opinion and he's entitled to
|it.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|> No. It's not a matter of opinion. Lol jfc dude you're
|talking about justifying lines of dialog in a movie. Of
|course it's opinion. Also, chill. > There is no
|"justification scale" regarding accurate appropriate
|dialogue for a character that isn't out of place for who
|they are in the movie. Of course there is- theres
|justification for any dialog choice. "Out of place" will
|be, of course, opinion. Next, you're going
|wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of your way to try and put words
|in my mouth. I'm not saying things need to be pleasant.
|I'm not saying characters need to be perfect. I'm just
|looking at the movie. > He's not supposed to be
|appreciated. Movies aren't supposed to be showing
|everything as pleasant and acceptable. Sometimes the
|intention is to show unpleasant and uncomfortable things,
|and it wasn't glorified. It's stupid to get upset about a
|character that is supposed to be unpleasant and racist
|behaving that way. You're like in a completely different
|world than the point I was making. Please, reread what I
|wrote and then come back to this. I'm not saying it's
|unjustified because it's *unpleasant*. It doesn't make me
|uncomfortable watching it to a particular degree, again
|putting it in the time context it was made in (which you
|seem to keep avoiding me saying for whatever reason). It's
|that it feels wedged in, awkward, out of place, and
|basically un-earned. To me. Because that's how opinions
|work.
|u/contrabardus - 1 month
|
|The fact that people actually talked that way and the
|setting of the movie is not a matter of opinion. You're
|overapplying that statement to the entire argument. I
|was there, and I've been around people like that before.
|Not anyone I would call anything resembling a friend,
|but sometimes stuff like that happens and you just deal
|with it. My entire point is that it isn't out of place,
|and what is or isn't out of place in a setting in this
|context is not really a matter of opinion. It was
|completely within a realistic portrayal of what someone
|like the character Tarantino was playing would have said
|and done. Especially given the context of who he was
|talking to, why, and what the power dynamic was. Too
|many people rely on "a matter of opinion" as an argument
|closer and it often gets used when it's not a
|justification or relevant point and ignores the fact
|that not every opinion is equally valid. "It's your
|opinion" is not a justification for a poorly justified
|and badly reasoned point, it's often used as an excuse
|to avoid acknowledging a better one. Then why did you
|say it? >Perhaps, I dunno, some *black* people may not
|have appreciated it? This doesn't matter, they weren't
|supposed to "appreciate" it. The entire point was that
|the character was supposed to be uncomfortable and
|unpleasant. If someone can't handle it, they shouldn't
|have their butt in a seat for an R rated movie.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|> The fact that people actually talked that way and
|the setting of the movie is not a matter of opinion.
|You're overapplying that statement to the entire
|argument. You're hanging your hat on "people were more
|likely to talk like that in the 90s" bring conflated
|with, "objectively, he HAD to use that line- it was
|the 90s!". Just because the first might be true
|doesn't mean the second is. > I was there, and I've
|been around people like that before. Not anyone I
|would call anything resembling a friend, but sometimes
|stuff like that happens and you just deal with it.
|So was I. Yep, know exactly what you mean. > My
|entire point is that it isn't out of place, and what
|is or isn't out of place in a setting in this context
|is not really a matter of opinion. I know your
|point. And I disagree on both of these points. Yes,
|*certain* things can be more objectively out of place:
|from a historical standpoint jetpacks shouldn't be in
|a civil war movie. But there is also a matter of
|taste, which you keep seeming to dodge as a topic
|altogether. What moments in a movie are earned, stick
|out, feel awkward, have had the groundwork laid for
|them, etc. It seems like you are conflating your
|opinion, ("this works well"), with something you feel
|is more objective ("because it's the 90s"). It isn't a
|compelling argument, I'm sorry. And then repeating
|"it's objectively true" over and over isn't helping.
|> If someone can't handle it, they shouldn't have
|their butt in a seat for an R rated movie. Tell me
|you didn't read my comments without telling me you
|didn't read my comments. If a disagreeing opinion
|got you this butthurt, you shouldn't have your butt in
|a seat for Reddit.
|u/Omega_A_15 - 1 month
|
|I see a lot of people criticize that scene in particular
|when talking about Tarantino's use of the N word, and you
|say that there's no narrative justification for it there.
|Personally I think there is and that it's to further
|establish the hierarchy between Tarantino's character and
|SLJ's character. We can tell from the way SLJ talks to him
|that he's a superior, but Tarantino using that word and SLJ
|not only not getting angry but seemingly encouraging it
|tells us that he either fears or respects him so much that
|he'd let something like that go. Is that the only way
|Tarantino could have achieved that? probably not. But I felt
|that it was a very effective way of doing it. I won't argue
|that he does or doesn't use that word too liberally but I
|think at least in that case there is a solid reason for it.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|This is at least a line of logic that I can follow.
|Essentially, I feel like considering the execution of the
|rest of the movie, what you're describing would've been
|one of the more fumbled executions of displaying personal
|dynamics there. Of course "earning" any moment in a movie
|is up for interpretation and opinion. It just always felt
|clumsy to me in a movie otherwise extremely slick.
|u/unWildBill - 1 month
|
|Yeah, the “Storage” line has been pointed out as too much for
|years.
|u/endlessfight85 - 1 month
|
|The storage line shows us that even though we know nothing
|about Jimmy, we know he's an important person to be talking
|like that in front of Jules without flinching.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|But then at the same time, he's a guy where Jules can just
|drag a dead body into his house and fuck his day up. So not
|*that* important. Not that I don't get the idea your
|putting across. It's just if that was the idea, it's a bit
|muddled imo.
|u/MrMicou - 1 month
|
|Jimmy is a guy Jules needed something from, that's the only
|reason he allowed it. The fact that Jimmy's wife was black
|just made it seem like there was some kind of inside joke
|being played out. That scene has always been viewed as too
|much, by many, myself included, and it did indeed cause me
|to side-eye him, as did many others, which is why he has
|this reputation. The Hateful Eight, even more than Django,
|just absolutely solidified that this was justified, in my
|opinion. I don't know that he's a racist, but bro definitely
|has an N-word fetish or something. I saw Pulp Fiction in
|theaters, and I went with three other black people, and we
|all commented on how unrealistic that scene was. It was
|funny because the guy delivering the lines was such a twerp,
|but it was wildly unrealistic in my opinion, and totally
|unnecessary.
|u/unWildBill - 1 month
|
|My friends all said “What the hell is Bonnie doing with
|him?”
|u/bkrebs - 1 month
|
|You're getting downvoted a lot deeper in this thread, but for
|what it's worth. I mostly agree with you. The other commenter is
|really jumping through hoops to justify that usage of the word.
|u/ViennettaLurker - 1 month
|
|I'm even trying to lay out that I understand the overall
|point, it's just that some instances within Tarantinos work
|have those qualities less so than others. But it's the
|internet, so not only is my opinion wrong... it isn't even a
|*matter* of opinion. Good lord.
|u/estofaulty - 1 month
|
|Weird how Tarantino writes all his movies to take place in a time
|when he can just throw around the N word.
|u/Bear_Caulk - 1 month
|
|A pass for what? Having racism depicted in films?? Why would that
|require a pass? You get that depicting racism and celebrating racism
|are vastly different concepts right?
|u/Moomookawa - 1 month
|
|Give them an inch they’ll go a mile
|u/IronSeagull - 1 month
|
|Give him a foot, he’ll forget about anything else.
|u/noonnoonz - 1 month
|
|Makes scents….
|u/Radiant_Gap_2868 - 1 month
|
|I gave your mom an inch
|u/Moomookawa - 1 month
|
|I’m a test tube baby
|u/Witch-kingOfBrynMawr - 1 month
|
|Yeah well I fucked that test tube son
|u/CoreyFeldmanNo1Fan - 1 month
|
|You fucked her son? How was he? Hung?
|u/Moomookawa - 1 month
|
|I’m a ma’am. 
|u/Tank7997 - 1 month
|
|Idk. Sam Jackson vouches for him. If Sam says he isn't racist then I
|believe him.
|u/Vegan_Harvest - 1 month
|
|It wasn't even a pass, he got away with it because it was the 90's
|and nobody listened to complaints, especially when the movie did so
|well.
|u/Landlubber77 - 1 month
|
|I mean, the part with Gene Hackman telling Denzel about the Lipizzaner
|stallions being white isn't exactly subtle, and in case you didn't catch
|the racial subtext they have Denzel say "they're not white at birth,
|they're black." I don't know if that dialogue was part of Tarantino's
|addition, but yeah it always sorta jumped out of nowhere that Hackman's
|character was a racist. I don't think they needed that, he was already
|an asshole.
|u/brevity-soul-wit - 1 month
|
|It didn't jump out of nowhere. They talk about Lipizzaners from early
|in the movie. Hackman pushes to talking about these horses as the best
|of the best in conversation with a new officer from the beginning. A
|potential implication is they're not colleagues, he's in charge, and
|Washington is a useful tool. He can be the very best at what he does,
|but he's still just a horse to be ridden. However, you can't say
|that's the obvious intention at first, but the conversations with
|these potential slights build throughout the movie. That tense moment
|at the end where Washington has finally made Hackman powerless is
|where he's finally out in the open about it with the white/black. He
|had nothing left. Hackman is playing mindgames with Washington, and
|using a tactic where he can easily say "what are you talking about,
|I'm just talking about horses!" If he were openly accused of racism.
|It's what people might now refer to as microagressions, and this type
|of "oh I didn't mean anything like that" mindgame is a recognizable
|behavior for anyone who's dealt with manipulative people. I think
|this movie does a great job in depicting a very subtle and pervasive
|type of racism that contributes to this rift and then mutiny. If there
|was respect between these officers, things might have played out very
|differently. Hackman's ego in being contradicted by his "lesser"
|prevents him from being open to input from his XO. The whole time you
|can ask yourself "is this just a stubborn captain? Is he actually
|racist?" Until finally he takes the mask off when he thinks there's
|nothing left to lose. I think if you rewatch it this lens, you might
|see how Washington could be sensing more behind the idle conversation
|than is obvious at first, and makes the final Lipizzaner conversation
|fell inevitable.
|u/mchch8989 - 1 month
|
|Yeah, to say this “came out of nowhere,” doesn’t make much sense to
|me. It’s like, the whole thing.
|u/SplendidPunkinButter - 1 month
|
|Also it sets up the ending where he says “you were right and I was
|wrong…about the Lipizzaner stallions”
|u/thatirishguyyyyy - 1 month
|
|Agreed.  I honestly don't know how anybody could watch that movie
|and not feel like the character was written in such a way that has
|you asking yourself, "Did he just imply..." Very obvious by the
|subtleties presented early on imo. 
|u/LeDemonicDiddler - 1 month
|
|I do. Me and my dad. It would take me a rewatch to reaffirm any
|suspicions and my dad would fall asleep 1/2 way through and then
|say it’s boring. Our tastes in movies differ greatly.
|u/TheWhooooBuddies - 1 month
|
|Fucking excellent reply.
|u/SendStoreMeloner - 1 month
|
|The ships name is "U.S.S Alabama".
|u/Papaofmonsters - 1 month
|
|Which is an actual *Ohio* class sub.
|https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Alabama_(SSBN-731)
|u/C47man - 1 month
|
|Not only that, but the US navy refused to help the filmmakers
|get shots of a submarine diving for the early sequence, so the
|crew camped out by a submarine base, and when an actual sub
|departed on a mission they chased it in boats and with a
|helicopter and filmed it. The sub they happened to chase turned
|out to be the actual real life USS Alabama
|u/Few-Hair-5382 - 1 month
|
|The US Navy refused to help them as they thought a film
|depicting a mutiny onboard a nuclear submarine was not a good
|look for them. It's why the opening scene with the news
|reporter is onboard a French ship. The French Navy were happy
|to help as it wasn't about them.
|u/looktowindward - 1 month
|
|It was NOT the Alabama. That footage was taken in Hawaii and
|its obviously not a Ohio. Alabama was homeported in Bremerton.
|u/C47man - 1 month
|
|Really? Well damn that's a little disappointing haha
|u/Papaofmonsters - 1 month
|
|No mystery why they didn't want to help with a film where the
|CO of a boomer nearly causes WW3.
|u/cougar572 - 1 month
|
|and now the Navy uses the film in training to discuss
|ethics.
|u/trireme32 - 1 month
|
|I was NROTC in college, and we studied this film. The crazy
|thing is Hackman’s character is right. You follow the last
|order given as it’s given unless you receive an order that
|contradicts it in time. They should’ve fired the missles.
|u/seakingsoyuz - 1 month
|
|COs and superior commanders have more flexibility to
|deviate from orders than what they teach midshipmen. > A
|commanding officer who departs from his or her orders or
|instructions, or takes official action which is not in
|accordance with such orders or instructions, does so upon
|his or her own responsibility and shall report immediately
|the circumstances to the officer from whom the prior
|orders or instructions were received. Of particular
|importance is the commanding officer's duty to take all
|necessary and appropriate action in self-defense of the
|command. Note that this doesn’t say there’s anything
|*wrong* with departing from orders, only that the CO is
|accountable for their decision to do so and needs to let
|the chain of command know about it ASAP. Submarine
|captains in particular are not able to rely on continuous
|two-way communications with the operational commander
|ashore because they can’t receive radio signals at depth
|and can’t send radio signals without possibly being
|detected by the enemy, so they must be relied upon to
|exercise discretion in ambiguous circumstances.
|u/Few-Hair-5382 - 1 month
|
|But what about the incomplete order? Didn't they have an
|obligation to find out what it said given the stakes
|involved?
|u/DirkRockwell - 1 month
|
|As a human, yes. As a soldier, no.
|u/cougar572 - 1 month
|
|You follow whatever order is known not wait for a what
|if. The place that sent the message could have been
|destroyed mid message and the launch was a counter
|attack.
|u/TomAto314 - 1 month
|
|Wait, it's all Ohio?
|u/ColdIceZero - 1 month
|
|🌍👨‍🚀🔫👨‍🚀
|u/nyuhokie - 1 month
|
|Wait...the horses are inbred too?
|u/svengoalie - 1 month
|
|I understand the racist overtones, I don't understand why that's bad
|for the film.
|u/AttractivestDuckwing - 1 month
|
|Because up to that point, it was more of an old military
|generation vs. the new - which mirrored what was happening in the
|US military at the time. There was no clear choice on who was the
|"good" guy and who was the "bad" guy. Both approaches had merits
|and faults, which made the movie much more interesting and
|thought-provoking. But once GH's character was overtly racist, it
|became "oh, okay, everything about him and all he represents must
|now be wrong."
|u/Darmok47 - 1 month
|
|Yup that's exactly it. The conflict between Hackman and
|Washington is about different viewpoints and experiences as
|officers. Throw in a little racist overtones and it stops being
|about ideas. Literally the line at the end about them being
|both right and both wrong doesn't work as well when one of them
|is a racist jerk.
|u/NotGalenNorAnsel - 1 month
|
|I believe you're describing dog whistles too, things that certain
|audiences will understand to be racist metaphor, but others won't,
|and then the speaker falls back on plausible deniability if ever
|called out (Just horses).
|u/DamienStark - 1 month
|
|Not quite. Dog whistles aren't meant to be recognized by the
|"wrong" audience. This clearly reads as a racist reference, it
|just has plausible deniability. A dog whistle would be like
|saying the horses were first bred in the year 1488 (even if the
|real answer was say 1532) because that number 1488 is a known
|symbol for hate groups. Nobody who didn't know that would even
|notice the number 1488, just as humans don't even hear (actual)
|dog whistles.
|u/Wideawakedup - 1 month
|
|I haven’t seen this movie since I was a teenager when it first
|came out on vhs, but it was pretty clear Hackmans character was
|either really racist or blase about race but was using it as a
|tool to intimidate Denzel’s character.
|u/Any_Accident1871 - 1 month
|
|Man I saw the Lipizzaners once and, while impressive, is some of the
|most boring horse shit that I’ve ever sat through.
|u/riegspsych325 - 1 month
|
|can you do me a favor and record a commentary for the movie and post
|it? This is such a perfectly worded insight into the film and I’d
|love to hear more
|u/RealisticTiming - 1 month
|
|I was just thinking how incredibly well written that was.
|u/Cowboy_BoomBap - 1 month
|
|Why was Denzel mad about this though?
|u/intlcreative - 1 month
|
|THIS. Which is why Crimson Tide is one of my favorite movies. It's
|directly tide to the dynamic between the two.
|u/contentp0licy - 1 month
|
|Been on a Tarantino kick lately and now I’m even more excited to see
|this for the first time.
|u/Osceana - 1 month
|
|Same
|u/zombietrooper - 1 month
|
|Have you seen True Romance?
|u/contentp0licy - 1 month
|
|Not yet but after a brief google search I’m excited for that now
|too
|u/zombietrooper - 1 month
|
|It’s my absolute favorite Tarantino written movie.
|u/contentp0licy - 1 month
|
|Oh fuck yeah. I think I’ve got 5/9 done so far but that’ll
|be next for sure
|u/ZylonBane - 1 month
|
|And the part where they have to fight the giant robot spider really
|seemed shoehorned in.
|u/Landlubber77 - 1 month
|
|Well when the studio wants a giant mechanical spider as part of the
|climax, then you'd damn well better give em a giant mechanical
|spider as part of the climax. Who are you, Kevin Smith?
|u/Latter-Possibility - 1 month
|
|Thagarian Snare Beast
|u/skeyer - 1 month
|
|*thanagarian
|u/Latter-Possibility - 1 month
|
|Your pedantry is most welcome.
|u/skeyer - 1 month
|
|i've seen evening with kevin smith enough times to be an
|expert level pedant
|u/IgnoreThisName72 - 1 month
|
|I did like the dog, though.  Adorable.
|u/ShutterBun - 1 month
|
|Name’s Bear. He goes everywhere with me.
|u/somepeoplewait - 1 month
|
|Do you know anything about spiders?
|u/kersey_paul - 1 month
|
|They're the fiercest killers in the animal kingdom.
|u/SBR404 - 1 month
|
|I don’t think Hackman‘s character was actually racist. I always took
|it as an attempt to break Denzel‘s character‘s composure by saying
|something outrageous that would rattle him. But I agree, it came out
|of nowhere.
|u/Landlubber77 - 1 month
|
|That's the other interpretation yeah, and I guess that makes more
|sense given Hackman's actions at the end, recommending Denzel for
|command of his own ship.
|u/atlhart - 1 month
|
|I also always saw it this way. It’s Hackman’s character doubling
|down on being an asshole. He’s a smart man and he knows what he’s
|saying is incredibly racist, and he’s doing it to intentionally
|manipulate Denzel’s character.
|u/online_jesus_fukers - 1 month
|
|Like Gunny Hartman said "there is no racism in the military. We
|don't look down on *list of racist names*. Here you are all equally
|worthless."
|u/Eisernes - 1 month
|
|I was in the US Navy around the time this movie came out, and I
|can confirm subtle and not so subtle racism was common. It was
|considered ok because “we are all shipmates.”
|u/Interrophish - 1 month
|
|....there was plenty of racism in the military, very easy to find
|racism in the military during the vietnam war don't get your
|history from movies, kids.
|u/ablackcloudupahead - 1 month
|
|I didn't experience much racism in the military. Most officers
|being white is a thing, and can be tied to racism and classism
|in general. I didn't encounter any overt racism though
|u/online_jesus_fukers - 1 month
|
|Not in the Marines....we were all treated like shit.
|u/Interrophish - 1 month
|
|Oh, you're a vietnam vet? Sorry, I didn't realize.
|u/winkman - 1 month
|
|I always saw it as a "here's a subtle way of showing you that I know
|more than you do". It was just a flex--this is pre internet, so to
|know something like this, you have to be well read. Denzel's
|character is just showing him "I may be young, but I'm as well read
|as you are AND I pay better attention!" It's not racist, it's a
|superior trying to dunk on a subordinate, and then getting blocked.
|u/MacDegger - 1 month
|
|Perche no los dos?
|u/winkman - 1 month
|
|Because the racism spin doesn't make sense given the ending.
|u/lovesmyirish - 1 month
|
|I think this is the explanation. I think i recall that Hackman’s
|character tells Denzel that he was right about the horses at the
|very end.
|u/cmgr33n3 - 1 month
|
|But he only admits he's wrong about what country the horses are
|from (Spain not Portugal) not about them being born black. He's
|specifically not admitting he was wrong about almost starting a
|nuclear war, or going against the core of what he'd devoted his
|entire life to in trying to usurp his 2nd in command's duty, or
|the clear racism in his horse analogy. He relents on the most
|trivial point of contention and nothing else showing that he's
|learned nothing from almost destroying the world and letting the
|audience know he is absolutely as much, or even more, of an
|asshole as they have believed all along.
|u/lovesmyirish - 1 month
|
|I think those are some strong points.
|u/DirkRockwell - 1 month
|
|What’s the difference? If we are the sum of our actions, and a
|person performs racist actions, how are they not a racist?
|u/3rdtryatremembering - 1 month
|
|Ehh, if you are willing to say something racist to rattle someone,
|you are a racist. Edit. Damn, a lot of people really want to be
|able to say racist shit while swearing they aren’t racist lmao.
|u/mcflyfly - 1 month
|
|Have you ever been in a fight with someone and said something you
|knew would hurt but didn’t actually believe to be true?
|u/EatAtGrizzlebees - 1 month
|
|I have the unfortunate "talent" of knowing what to say to
|absolutely break someone because that's what my mom did to me.
|It's about exploiting their insecurities to make them feel like
|absolute shit. I hate that I know this, but it's true.
|u/bonvoyageespionage - 1 month
|
|Yeah, I go quiet in arguments because the shit that pops into
|my brain as a response is never proportionate or forgivable.
|u/Ham_Pants_ - 1 month
|
|Can you do me?
|u/alexja21 - 1 month
|
|Ham is an inferior lunch meat ^Im ^so ^sorry
|u/Ham_Pants_ - 1 month
|
|Dang, bruv
|u/EatAtGrizzlebees - 1 month
|
|No, cause I don't know anything about you.
|u/Ham_Pants_ - 1 month
|
|That really cuts to the bone. You are good.
|u/EatAtGrizzlebees - 1 month
|
|Told you
|u/EatAtGrizzlebees - 1 month
|
|I think you missed my point. It has nothing to do with race
|and/or society, it has to do with what you know about the
|person. Using race as an example, you're not going to
|weaponize it unless you know the person is insecure about
|it. It's kind of hard to explain, especially with such low
|hanging fruit, like you said. But there are usually deep
|layers that go into it.
|u/3rdtryatremembering - 1 month
|
|Exactly. The idea of “oh, I’ll attack them for being black”
|isn’t some sort of highly developed skill lmao. It’s plain
|racism.
|u/EatAtGrizzlebees - 1 month
|
|Again, it's not the worst thing about them. It's what
|they hate about themselves that you exploit to make them
|go off the rails.
|u/EatAtGrizzlebees - 1 month
|
|Break the cycle, brother.
|u/Hollow_King - 1 month
|
|Great point. Especially in the heat of the moment it can get
|pretty cut-throat.
|u/3rdtryatremembering - 1 month
|
|I’ve never said racist things in that situation because I’m not
|racist. So putting someone down because of their race isn’t in
|the list of insults in my head.
|u/WhatsTheHoldup - 1 month
|
|Ah the ole' Kramer defence. [If only there was a horrible name
|I could call you that would make you as angry as I
|am](https://youtu.be/ktZde2tEK1Y?si=luPXIUzLU8dwt7Fp) Edit: Oh
|God, I'm bombing as bad as Michael Richards in 2006
|u/mcflyfly - 1 month
|
|I’m not defending anybody. I’d never argue saying something to
|hurt someone is the right thing to do, just that it’s
|something people do sometimes.
|u/aardvarkyardwork - 1 month
|
|Pretty sure people have said hurtful things in the heat of the
|moment without meaning them long before Kramer used it.
|u/I_am_the_Apocalypse - 1 month
|
|This is completely false.
|u/Unleashtheducks - 1 month
|
|Reddit is very white and has a very narrow view of what “counts”
|as racism
|u/Sharp_Black - 1 month
|
|Very true.
|u/okayillgiveyouthat - 1 month
|
|This is such an important point
|u/zerocoolforschool - 1 month
|
|Agreed. He was intentionally baiting him to see how he’d react.
|u/ablackcloudupahead - 1 month
|
|I agree. He's trying to rattle Denzel's character. Shitty move, but
|none of his actual actions make him out to be racist
|u/ImNotTheZodiacKiller - 1 month
|
|Sorry to be the one to break this to you but if you say racist
|things to someone in an attempt to upset them... You're being
|racist. Regardless, we're talking about a fictional character so how
|fucking weird to offer that viewpoint in defense.
|u/DWDit - 1 month
|
|Stop treating race like some special goddamn third rail. It’s
|simply a fact like any other fact. You making it something special
|simply empowers racist with a tool they otherwise wouldn’t have.
|It’s possible to imagine nearly any other fact or characteristic
|being used simply to rattle someone without being prejudiced on
|that one issue, but you want to make race special. Stop that. It
|causes more harm than good.
|u/barath_s - 1 month
|
|I think it's not as simple as Hackman's character being racist.
|(Essentially hackman did recommend Denzel's character Hunter in the
|end) Navy captains can be aggressive charging hard-ass sometimes and
|Hackman's character sometimes was. I suspect that he was trying to
|needle his XO who was of a different generation and see what he was
|made of, as well as show off as non-PC crusty old guy. And Hunter was
|a smooth charging new Navy, with a bit of know it all approach. https
|://np.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/fulv17/crimson_tide_1995_great_movi
|e_but_was_the_racial/ > And interestingly, Hunter is wrong too, since
|those horses are Slovenian. Just having it be racist actually
|cheapens the movie, makes it much more facile and unthinking.
|u/phyrros - 1 month
|
|>And interestingly, Hunter is wrong too, since those horses are
|Slovenian. JUst to make sure: Naw, the horses are not slovenian.
|The stud farm is in modern slovenia but there is about every type of
|horse in the Lippizaner except the typical regional horses. And I
|don't know how to say it in english, because german has a very
|specific word (schimmel meaning literally mold) for the types of
|horses which carry a specific gene which results in their color
|turning white as they age. So whenever you read about "Schimmel" in
|german and the topic is not mold but a horse you have a horse which
|starts with a different skin color as it ends up with
|u/epochellipse - 1 month
|
|I always assumed that was Tarantino along with the comic book and
|movie star bits.
|u/Mutantdogboy - 1 month
|
|Always the reality of racism though it comes out of nowhere and is as
|surprising as it is shocking.  I do believe it should stand in movies
|as an education to what it looks like and sounds like.  And why you
|should be against it.  Loads of movies back then portrayed the horrid
|aspects of fascism and racism. And I truly believe when at their best
|stories not just movies can be the best guides on life.  Not perfect
|but a little nudge in the right direction. 
|u/zanarkandabesfanclub - 1 month
|
|Tbh I never interpreted this with any racial intent. I see it more as
|a reinforcement of the idea that Denzel’s character was smart and
|Hackman sees him as a know it all with no real world experience.
|Denzel correcting him on the horses was a “but ahkctually” kind of
|moment.
|u/Landlubber77 - 1 month
|
|Okay the result of the convo (Denzel correcting Hackman) can
|reinforce that dynamic, but to say there was no racial subtext to a
|white guy randomly bringing up that the best horses in the world are
|all white, and the black guy responding "they're not white at birth,
|they're black," is silly. Of course there was. Now, there are two
|separate interpretations of that scene -- one that Hackman's
|character is racist, and another that he's not racist but definitely
|trying to rile Denzel's character up by poking at race -- but there
|is absolutely racial subtext to that dialogue.
|u/Papaofmonsters - 1 month
|
|I looked it up. They're both wrong. Lipizanner horses are
|considered gray, not white. Some are other colors, but the gray
|gene is both dominant and selected for by breeders. The foals can
|be born bay or black.
|u/johnla - 1 month
|
|i read your comment wrong and thought you said they're born
|gay... like wow. Now we're going all kinds of directions and
|subtext under subtext.. Denzel and Hackman were... flirting?
|u/Pure-Drawer-2617 - 1 month
|
|Yeah, the horses are considered gray, not white. And people are
|considered black when they’re actually brown. However I highly
|doubt the specific horse breeder terminology is the point of the
|dialogue
|u/Papaofmonsters - 1 month
|
|Except these guys were both acting as though they were
|educated on the manner.
|u/barath_s - 1 month
|
|> Denzel correcting him on the horses was a “but ahkctually” kind of
|moment. Denzel is right on the color, but both the characters are
|wrong about the origin. Neither Spain, nor Portugal, the horses are
|from Lipica , in Slovenia, part of the Hapsburg Empire
|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipica,_Se%C5%BEana
|u/GimpyStixx - 1 month
|
|I always loved that dialogue when I was younger, but it really does
|feel out of place. Though yes, sounds a lot like Tarantino's style of
|dialogue
|u/iCameToLearnSomeCode - 1 month
|
|>I don't think they needed that, he was already an asshole. Audiences
|can like an asshole, making him racist ensures no one likes him.
|u/Landlubber77 - 1 month
|
|Then why bother redeeming him at the end with all the touchy feely
|shit? Hackman's character was a massive prick to Denzel's the entire
|movie, the audience already hated him plenty, they didn't need the
|extra layer of racism.
|u/blind_marvin - 1 month
|
|That had to be Tarantino. It sounds too similar to the convo about
|Alexandre Dumas from Django between King Schulz and Candy.
|u/looktowindward - 1 month
|
|Yeah, it was disappointing and unnecessary.
|u/specifichero101 - 1 month
|
|I don’t think QT is outright racist, but I think he just believes he’s
|more in with black culture than he really is. I just started reading his
|second book and the beginning talks a lot about how his mom dated a
|black guy who was a big influence on him. Reminds me of a boss I used
|to work for. He was a really great progressive person and stood for a
|lot of good things. But whenever he was around a person from a different
|culture, it’s like he would mimic them or something. So if he was
|talking to a black person, he would change his way of speaking to a
|pretty bad stereotypical black voice in a subtle way. In his mind I
|think he was trying to do the right thing. More ignorance than hatred,
|but still uncomfortable.
|u/MrPentiumD - 1 month
|
|Was your boss Micheal Scott?
|u/beecars - 1 month
|
|I think mimicry is pretty common in human communication. But I can see
|how it can go too far and seem pandering or inauthentic.
|u/King_Khoma - 1 month
|
|yea its very common actually, i remember seeing a video on it and
|when americans were interacting with brits the brits would make
|their voices more americanized and americans would put on a slight
|accent with no instruction.
|u/LosPer - 1 month
|
|Wait until you hear that white progressives dumb down their speech
|when they talk with black people...
|https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liberals-dumb-
|themselves-down-when-they-speak-black-people-new-study-contends/
|u/TrueOrPhallus - 1 month
|
|Your boss was code switching.
|u/Prudent_Tackle1280 - 8 days
|
|That’s not code switching. JFC.
|u/apageofthedarkhold - 1 month
|
|You wouldn't happen to be from Manitoba, would you? Lol
|u/Coast_watcher - 1 month
|
|I thought he adds racist dialogue in everything ?
|u/MaximumZer0 - 1 month
|
|That, and gaze shots of women's feet.
|u/JacksonianEra - 1 month
|
|Sydney Tamiia Poitier got the role in Death Proof because she showed
|Tarantino her feet at the audition.
|u/MaximumZer0 - 1 month
|
|Least surprising disgusting thing I've learned about him.
|u/Readonkulous - 1 month
|
|Kind of curious what “racist” means here, you think Tarantino injects
|his own racism or that he wants characters’ racism to be depicted?
|u/Mibrealest - 1 month
|
|considering he self inserted into pulp fiction to say the n word i’d
|choose the former
|u/SheinhardtWigCompany - 1 month
|
|He actually wrote that part for Steve Buscemi but Buscemi couldn't
|do it because of a scheduling conflict so he instead plays the
|waiter at Jack Rabbit Slims
|u/the-rage- - 1 month
|
|He does it in Django as well. I don’t think he’s actually racist
|though considering all the racists are bad guys and are killed off
|every time.
|u/herpblarb6319 - 1 month
|
|I may be remembering it wrong but Tarantinos character in the
|movie is the first to get dynamited when Django escapes
|u/funnyfacemcgee - 1 month
|
|Tarantino writing racist characters into media more accurately
|portrays the ugliness of reality. He's not creating racist
|characters to praise them, he's holding a mirror up to society. 
|Nobody sees the nuance in anything and just fires off "he's
|racist" without a second thought. 
|u/thirdcoast96 - 1 month
|
|Going out of your way to write in hard-r’s and trauma bait
|(two of which you created roles for yourself for) is going to
|make black people look at you a certain way. Especially as a
|white film maker.
|u/Marsium - 1 month
|
|https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RBg-1WPRtQs
|u/estofaulty - 1 month
|
|He obviously just likes writing racist characters.
|u/LaSopaSabrosa - 1 month
|
|Just wait til Denzel finds out about Django
|u/gbmontgo - 1 month
|
|tarantino's two additions to this movie (the stallion conversation and
|the silver surfer conversation) both actively make the movie worse. The
|silver surfer part is just cheesy. The stallion conversation completely
|upends the whole point of the movie and treats the audience like idiot
|children--the crux of the movie is that both denzel and hackman are
|right, and put in an impossible situation where a decision has to be
|made, with world-changing consequences if they're wrong. the conflict
|inherent in how they each go about making their decisions is what makes
|the movie. Tarantino's addition (in conjunction with denzel happening
|to end up making the correct call, through sheer luck) allows the
|audience to say "oh, hackman's just a racist old coot" and dismiss the
|entire thought experiment of the movie.
|u/teems - 1 month
|
|Everyone says they're both right. IMO Gene was wrong when the 2nd
|message came in incomplete, and he still wanted to go ahead with the
|launch. Shouldn't it be obvious that the 2nd message could possibly
|stop the order?
|u/Nonya5 - 1 month
|
|Gene was wrong the whole time. There's four scenarios, US attacked
|and we don't retaliate, US attacked and we do retaliate, US not
|attacked and we don't launch, US not attacked and we do launch.
|Humanity only survives in the two scenarios where we don't launch.
|Humanity ends in the two scenarios where we do launch.
|u/twoinvenice - 1 month
|
|It’s also why the nuclear triad is a triad - three completely
|different methods for ensuring that weapons can be delivered. The
|XO character is correct that they have backup as knocking out all
|the legs would be next to impossible
|u/AndrewH73333 - 1 month
|
|This logic is even more clear to the two nations that slowly and
|deliberately set up the situation you’re describing in the first
|place. The time to change our minds isn’t in on the battlefield at
|the last minute on someone’s whim.
|u/attersonjb - 1 month
|
|And yet, if it is known that there will not be any retaliation,
|the only "logical" move would be to launch first.
|u/gbmontgo - 1 month
|
|shouldn't it be obvious that the 2nd message could possibly be
|literally anything else? again, this is the crux of the movie--no
|one knew or could know what the 2nd message said
|u/Mean-Bar-548 - 1 month
|
|That's the thing, since it could be anything, the correct decision
|is not to burn the whole world in nuclear inferno if you have
|incomplete information.
|u/fcosm - 1 month
|
|username checks out
|u/teems - 1 month
|
|He threw all logic out the window though. You're not supposed to
|be captain of a submarine without being a smart person. Denzel's
|character even said there's always other submarines in the area
|which can handle the order in the event you can't comply.
|u/Tranecarid - 1 month
|
|You’re not arguing in good faith. First, the captain was many
|things but he most certainly was not stupid. Secondly, the
|argument about other submarines is refuted in the same scene in
|next line.
|u/jrdnmdhl - 1 month
|
|Looks in perfectly good faith to me and just because Hackman's
|character has a response doesn't mean that response
|effectively rebuts the point (because it doesn't!).
|u/teems - 1 month
|
|That's why you make sure. If the warden's phone battery dies
|before he can answer a call from the governor, he isn't going to
|execute a prisoner unless he's 100% sure.
|u/gumbo_chops - 1 month
|
|Well logically speaking, wouldn't one naturally assume the second
|message would provide new instructions that deviate from the
|original message by some degree? I mean, they're not going to send
|a second message just to say "babe, have you fired the missiles
|yet?"
|u/TheSwarm212 - 20 days
|
|Google regs around nuke launch on sub. An incomplete message that
|can't be authenticated is not a message.
|u/tom_swiss - 1 month
|
|But they aren't both right. The procedure is clear that both have to
|agree a valid order has been received in order to launch. The captain
|violated his orders by trying to force the XO to cooperate with a
|launch.
|u/Unique-Ad9640 - 1 month
|
|The only valid order was the one to launch for the majority of the
|movie. Sure, we know in hindsight the cancellation was also valid,
|but in the movie at the time of Hunter's refusal, they didn't.
|Ramsey was 100% right in that an unauthenticated partial order is no
|order at all. Hunter was right that they should check again, and
|Ramsey was also right that he had to protect the boat and the launch
|up until receiving said validated stand-down order or, barring that,
|the time of launch. Notice that the second the stand-down EAM is
|validated and authenticated he immediately hands over the conn and
|doesn't pursue the launch. That's what I personally love about this
|movie. Two main characters, seemingly diametrically opposed, with
|solid foundations based on logic and military bearing that guide
|their actions.
|u/AlfredoThayerMahan - 1 month
|
|It doesn’t matter. The two man rule exists. It’s Hunter’s
|prerogative as XO to shut down the launch if he doesn’t think it’s
|the right decision. He’s been through PRP and with the rank is
|able to make that call. This isn’t a fault, this is a deliberate
|“Weak-Link” in the nuclear launch sequence. He says no, end of
|story, they aren’t launching.
|u/Unique-Ad9640 - 1 month
|
|Understood.
|u/tom_swiss - 1 month
|
|I may not being using the lingo correctly and invite correction,
|but when you have a standard procedure dictated by the command
|structure like "no launch unless both officers agree", is that not
|an "order"? Whether the word "order" is correct or not, Ramsey did
|not behave in the manner that he was required to by the rules of
|military conduct. IRL, the multi-man protocol and Vasily Arkhipov
|declining to approve a launch likely saved human civilivation
|during the Cuban missile crisis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sov
|iet_submarine_B-59#Nuclear_close_call
|u/jaggervalance - 1 month
|
|I just rewatched the movie and there's also a Star Trek reference in
|the dialogue between Denzel and the radio man. It smells like
|Tarantino.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|yes he calls him scotty right?
|u/jaggervalance - 1 month
|
|Yes, after asking him if he ever watched Star Trek and remembers a
|scene in which Kirk asks Scotty to repair something about warp
|speed. Then this gets referenced throughout their dialogues.
|u/Major_Stranger - 1 month
|
|Hackman is completely in the wrong in the movie. He is not just
|launching torpedo into an enemy sub, he want to first strike a
|potential rogue Russian naval base on the basis the rogue elements may
|possibly potentially maybe launch a nuclear missile against the USA.
|You do not first strike on the basis of garbage transmission with
|unclear commands. The only moral action here is no action.
|u/gbmontgo - 1 month
|
|??? he was literally ordered to launch the strike.
|u/Major_Stranger - 1 month
|
|And he received a garbage counter-command that had high likelihood
|of canceling the previous order. There was no other reason a new
|order would have been transmitted unless it was to cancel the
|strike order.
|u/Interrophish - 1 month
|
|>There was no other reason a new order would have been
|transmitted unless it was to cancel the strike order. unless it
|was literally anything, like say, "we have heard another
|american submarine has been attacked, be on full alert yourself"
|or "the enemy has launched nuclear missiles, be ready for
|continuity-of-government measures"
|u/gbmontgo - 1 month
|
|this is what, head canon?
|u/Major_Stranger - 1 month
|
|No, it's military doctrine. Every transmission put the sub at
|risk of being located. Once a launch order is given the sub
|must stay undetected until the missile is in the air. You
|simply don't send further command to a sub launching a nuclear
|strike unless it's to cancel that strike
|u/Odd_Gap2969 - 1 month
|
|‘Yo you guys launch yet? Anyways fuck em up LOL’
|u/TheRealBillyShakes - 1 month
|
|Standard Operating Procedure.
|u/Ok_Builder_4225 - 1 month
|
|Also just common sense. Why bother sending another order
|after an order to destroy the world? What's the point unless
|it's an order to halt?
|u/jaggervalance - 1 month
|
|Launch more nukes.
|u/Ok_Builder_4225 - 1 month
|
|I don't think most plans involve launching just a couple
|lol
|u/jaggervalance - 1 month
|
|Well in the movie the order was to launch 10 tridents,
|and the USS Alabama has ten more.
|u/AlfredoThayerMahan - 1 month
|
|And he has the authority to say no, end of story.
|u/TheUmgawa - 1 month
|
|If I recall, Tarantino also added the captain’s dog.
|u/xorvx - 1 month
|
|I don’t think Gene Hackman’s character ever exhibited racism. What
|that tidbit about the stallions did was to make way for a hook at the
|end; the “you were right and I was wrong” … “about the lipizzaner
|stallions”. This hook at the end allowed a resolution that he was
|going to remain stubborn and old school. Denzel was to remain the
|counter of that. Both right, but in different ways. This is one of
|my favorite juxtapositions of the movie. Fucking great movie. I’m
|going to watch it again tonight!
|u/DarePotential8296 - 1 month
|
|How do you decide what to capitalize and what not? There seems to be
|no rhyme or reason.
|u/MorrowPlotting - 1 month
|
|I was about 10 minutes into the Wikipedia entry before I realized we
|weren’t talking about *The Hunt for Red October* here. So, I guess my
|TIL is that these are two separate movies. (It’s a Russian mutiny in one
|and an American mutiny in the other. Huh.)
|u/SuicidalGuidedog - 1 month
|
|I always confuse both those movies with Down Periscope. They're the
|Holy Trinity of submarine movies.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|supposedly the most accurate of the 3 re how it is on a sub.
|u/Darmok47 - 1 month
|
|You should really watch Crimson Tide. It's fantastic. I think Red
|October is the better submarine movie, but Crimson Tide is just a
|better movie in general.
|u/NyQuil_Donut - 1 month
|
|"dead n-word storage" in Pulp Fiction always felt unnecessary to me. The
|fact that Quentin plays the character that says it doesn't help. In
|Django obviously the n-word's gonna get dropped because of the context
|of the movie, but in Pulp Fiction it just felt so out of place to me.
|u/ltjbr - 1 month
|
|He’s also not a good actor. I wouldn’t say he’s terrible, but he’s not
|good. Another reason he felt out of place in that movie. Him putting
|himself in movies has to be an ego thing because there’s no way he’s
|the best choice for a role.
|u/Expensive_Concern457 - 1 month
|
|Iirc that role in pulp fiction was originally meant for Steve
|buscemi but there was a schedule conflict
|u/wishihadapotbelly - 1 month
|
|That dialogue is very Buscemi, now that you said it.
|u/Particular_Ad_9531 - 1 month
|
|Yeah I still don’t agree that the scene needed a white dude
|repeatedly using the n-word for no reason but feel like Steve
|buscemi could have pulled it off in a way that seemed more
|natural. Tarantino’s delivery is way too cartoony.
|u/xtototo - 1 month
|
|The character shifting from belligerence to polite respect for
|the Wolf is intended to elevate the mythos of the Wolf as much
|as possible. The more belligerent he starts, the greater the
|Wolf’s status must be.
|u/Halvus_I - 1 month
|
|Buscemi could deadpan it properly.
|u/workatwork1000 - 1 month
|
|When have you ever seen buscemi in a racist role?  My theory is
|that buscemi balked at the dialogue and Tarantino had to do it
|himself because he wanted it in the movie so bad, based on his
|now obvious track record.
|u/Marsium - 1 month
|
|>When have you ever seen buscemi in a racist role? Off the
|top of my head, the sopranos, where he beats the shit outta
|the korean store owner for getting on his nerves. Not
|discounting the possibility that he could’ve refused to say
|the dialogue, though. Edit: In Reservoir Dogs, Steve
|Buscemi’s character says “you guys are acting like a bunch of
|fucking [n-words]” with a hard R.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|better than Steven Kings cameos at least. besides Maximum Overdrive
|that is
|u/STFUxxDonny - 1 month
|
|He was terrible in Django. Movie would be better without him
|u/Halvus_I - 1 month
|
|He did alright in Desperado, but thats pretty much his limit.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|fine in Four Rooms too, and was ok in Dusk til dawn (granted he
|had George, Harvey, and Juliette to carry him)
|u/Wisdomlost - 1 month
|
|The character is the type of guy who has known criminals show up to
|his house with a dead body in their car. He then allows them to call
|in someone else and clean up the dead body. He's upset but he never
|calls the cops or tells them to just get out. This is a man you have a
|hard time believing would use racist or any type of language he wants?
|Everyone in the movie are criminals.
|u/NyQuil_Donut - 1 month
|
|I never said I had a hard time believing he would say something like
|that lol. Just because it's believable doesn't mean it's necessary.
|He could've said anything else that would've fit his character.
|u/hussain_madiq_small - 1 month
|
|Why is anything necessary. Why is a sex slave in a gimp mask
|necessary, it's such a bullshit critique.
|u/NyQuil_Donut - 1 month
|
|It's just how I personally feel about it. If you're ok with it
|that's fine. I'm not entirely comfortable with it which is also
|fine. I think it's in poor taste or unnecessary because it only
|vaguely fits the character, and feels shoehorned in to be
|shocking without putting any effort in. It's not a bullshit
|critique, you just don't agree with me.
|u/hussain_madiq_small - 1 month
|
|And i personally feel you guys complaining about it are
|complete hypocrite's. We go to the movies with the
|understanding what we see on screen is a movie and not
|reality, you are talking about a movie full of death, rape,
|violence, crime and your take away is that one of the words
|made you uncomfortable. Your argument is almost verbatim the
|kind of argument you see on christian review sites or mumsnet
|about any movie that isnt a PG rated animation. "Such
|unnecessary violence" , "just for shock value" , "0 effort" ,
|"shoehorned in" , "poor taste". It is in fact a bullshit
|critique.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|he also never calls Jules that. just the dead n- in the car. hell
|Jules uses the n word in the same scene with Marcellus no?
|u/workatwork1000 - 1 month
|
|Its also bs because given the relationships in play he might have
|known marvin.
|u/estofaulty - 1 month
|
|“But this racist character Tarantino added to the movie so he could
|say the N word a hundred times was *supposed* to be racist!” Yeah,
|no shit.
|u/Particular_Ad_9531 - 1 month
|
|What makes it feel even weirder is that Samuel L Jackson’s character
|has been established as a supreme badass yet in that scene he has to
|suck up to this white dude who’s repeatedly screaming the n-word at
|him. I get that he needed a favour from him but the scene absolutely
|didn’t need the n-word in it let alone shouted repeatedly. Just pure
|shock value as compared with something like Trading Places where a
|white dude hatefully says the n-word to help establish he’s a bad
|person who deserves what’s coming to him.
|u/Interrophish - 1 month
|
|> What makes it feel even weirder is that Samuel L Jackson’s
|character has been established as a supreme badass I think badass-
|ness or not, in that scene he's bound by a sense of loyalty to his
|friend. Vincent screwed up, and Jules wants to help his friend.
|Or maybe it could be from the nascent repentance that Jules started
|growing after his opening scene: he starts feeling ashamed of
|killing and so doesn't contest abuse stemming from killing.
|u/jim9162 - 1 month
|
|Hes sucking up to the white dude because despite him saying some
|mean words, he's allowing them to crash at his place and effectively
|saving their asses. At risk to his own sanctuary. Also the way they
|chat you can tell they have some history. Also as a bit of added
|color, Jimmy's wife was black. So at the very least he's not
|completely racist.
|u/Particular_Ad_9531 - 1 month
|
|Yes I understood the purpose of the scene lol You haven’t
|explained why it needed to contain the n-word dozens of times.
|u/jim9162 - 1 month
|
|I was responding to the poster above me, not why or why not it
|was necessary. To play devils advocate, I suppose it was in
|there to add color to Jimmy's character, who this is his only
|scene, and to Samuel L Jackson's character for not reacting to
|it. But realistically it was because Tarantino found himself a
|N word pass and decided to really use it. I think he said it
|like 6 times in 1 minute lol.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|probably for the titilation factor. or he really just likes to
|say it
|u/workatwork1000 - 1 month
|
|_Also as a bit of added color, Jimmy's wife was black. So at the
|very least he's not completely racist._ Fuck off you piece of
|shit.
|u/jim9162 - 1 month
|
|Lol
|u/morgaina - 1 month
|
|It felt like Tarantino having a racial power fantasy
|u/laidbackeconomist - 1 month
|
|Just like what others said, Samuel was sucking up to Quinten because
|he was asking Quinten for a favor. To add to that, when Quinten
|called Harvey for help, he was sucking up to him hard. The thing
|that set off Quinten, Samuel saying that his coffee was gourmet, was
|actually treated as a compliment when Harvey showed a single
|inclination of liking it.
|u/Readonkulous - 1 month
|
|Yes but the fact that he is saying it to a black guy who is apparently
|his friend? It raised questions for me that have never really been
|answered. 
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|his friend uses the same word too. is it over the top and there for
|titilation or whatever more than anything? yes..
|u/QuantumR4ge - 1 month
|
|That same black guy who will very sternly defend his dialogue
|choices? Ngl mate it feels more odd that it raises more questions
|for you than it does for the literal target of the words who knows
|him personally
|u/Readonkulous - 1 month
|
|I more meant about the backstory of the characters, no need to get
|all pissy about it. 
|u/4Ever2Thee - 1 month
|
|His part in Pulp Fiction definitely feels like he put himself in there
|to be able to say the naughty words. The scene's great though, and
|adds to the plot, so I can't fault him too much for it.
|u/Kobe_stan_ - 1 month
|
|Steve Buscemi was supposed to play that part but his schedule didn't
|permit it. Instead he just did the role in Jack Rabbit Slims. I
|think the point of the language in the scene is that this is how
|someone associated with a bunch of gangsters in LA would talk. We're
|not supposed to like Jimmy or any of these guys.
|u/Darmok47 - 1 month
|
|I guess the implication in the movie is that he could stay stuff like
|that because his wife was black and his former partner was Jules.
|But yeah it doesn't really need to be in the movie.
|u/cagingnicolas - 1 month
|
|i mean racist dialogue is about as tarantino as gratuitous barefoot
|shots, so i wouldn't exactly be shocked.
|u/estofaulty - 1 month
|
|Who said you needed to be shocked?
|u/cagingnicolas - 1 month
|
|the title is written in a way that doesn't confirm if the claim is
|true. i am using a common expression to say that i believe it is
|probably true.
|u/Parking-Iron6252 - 1 month
|
|I’ve watched this movie a dozen times and it never occurred to me that
|race was even a subplot of the film.
|u/jlawler - 1 month
|
|Dude.  The whole debate about if the horses are white or black...  It
|wasn't subtle
|u/hg38 - 1 month
|
|Yeah, I immediately knew what dialogue they were talking about when
|I saw this post.
|u/Parking-Iron6252 - 1 month
|
|So he’s arguing that white stallions are superior because all you
|have to do is stick a cattle prod up their ass? That’s verbatim
|what he says in reference to how they are trained to be so
|obedient
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|you can get them to deal cards.. it is only a question of the
|voltage..
|u/deftonite - 1 month
|
|I envy your world view.  It must be nice.  Carry on. 
|u/BDMJoon - 1 month
|
|Hang on, Tarantino is being accused of adding racist dialogue to his
|mov...? Oh wait!
|u/krunkpanda - 1 month
|
|Tarantino and Stephen King randomly put the N word in everything they
|make.
|u/orielbean - 1 month
|
|Having spent many years in NE around the people that inspired King’s
|blue collar loudmouth characters, you’d hear hard Rs constantly from
|super unexpected places, for no real reason other than stupid
|meanness. A school with like 2 black families and limited interaction
|but somehow hearing the full spectrum of gross racist jokes etc.
|u/klonoaorinos - 1 month
|
|Blue collar NE??? Super expected
|u/Good-Beginning-6524 - 1 month
|
|IT is filled with stories about racism and I was just never able to
|push that thought to a side. Maybe thats why his characters are so
|believable
|u/Readonkulous - 1 month
|
|Yep, the whole section about the coloured people being burned alive
|seemed like a clear expression of what had happened in real life,
|and King pointing out that evil doesn’t just live in the sewers, but
|in some people’s ancestors. The woman responsible for the lynching
|of Emmett Till died only last year. 
|u/krunkpanda - 1 month
|
|Absolutely. He uses it for a purpose, usually.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|dont forget the tween train they run on the one character at the
|end.
|u/beltfedshooter - 1 month
|
|I worry about you Bevvy, I worry a lot.
|u/never_never_comment - 1 month
|
|Because it fits the characters they’re writing about. Thats what good
|writers do.
|u/LordShtark - 1 month
|
|Is that why he wrote himself to chow down on Salma Hayek's foot too?
|😆
|u/never_never_comment - 1 month
|
|I would have written myself to do that!
|u/Bteatesthighlander1 - 1 month
|
|Because delusional possibly autistic murderers pull sexy Latina
|dancers and suck liquor off their feet. Go outside and meet one
|some time.
|u/krunkpanda - 1 month
|
|Sometimes.
|u/WhydYouKillMeDogJack - 1 month
|
|thats not true. like in pulp fiction, when he has jimmy repeatedly
|use it when it does nothing for his character and doesnt seem to fit
|with the rest of the dialogue at all.
|u/never_never_comment - 1 month
|
|The character is a shitty white dude trying to fit in to a world
|in which he doesn’t belong. It makes perfect sense.
|u/ManyNefariousness237 - 1 month
|
|…everything about Pulp Fiction was over the top.
|u/TheRealBillyShakes - 1 month
|
|The N-word was over the top but not the all-male gang rape. That
|was normal.
|u/Numerous_Witness_345 - 1 month
|
|I think it still kind of fits, there aren't many "good" people in
|Pulp Fiction, maybe just Fabian.. but it still feels a bit on
|purpose.. like, the two main characters are covered in someone
|elses brains and then Jimmy comes in dropping N-bombs.. and he
|ends up looking like the worst person in the room, despite being
|surrounded by literal hitmen and a cleaner. And somehow he was
|Jules contact.
|u/Tumifaigirar - 1 month
|
|Fabian ?
|u/MaskedJackyl - 1 month
|
|Bruce Willis’s gf. Fabienne
|u/Tumifaigirar - 1 month
|
|Ah thought she wasn't a Spanish dude
|u/MaskedJackyl - 1 month
|
|lol noice
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|all she wanted as a pot of her own
|u/stenebralux - 1 month
|
|He only wrote a couple of white characters who did it and besides
|the one he played himself, they are all obviously awful people
|talking in a relevant context. Now the Jimmie situation, I
|don't think the problem is the dialogue, it's Quentin's terrible
|acting. (for the record, I think that overall segment is great
|and does a lot for the film and the characters, the Jimmie things
|sticks out but is so minor that it doesn't affect anything)
|Jimmie is a white guy, with a black wife and in a neighborhood he
|maybe shouldn't be who has some sort of history with a hitman,
|Jules.. and somehow feels like he can talk shit to him. His
|reaction to the situation is also unusual, he is only really
|worried that his wife will find out. He is guy who has been around
|black people and also criminals. And a bit of a douchebag. The
|implication is this guy or was connected. So the groundwork for
|the character is there. Now the idea, if you are watching for
|the first time, is to create tension in the scene.. you have a
|dead body, a random guy, and he is talking shit to a dangerous
|killer, who is also desperate and on the edge... so you don't know
|if the volatile situation will get even worse. But Tarantino
|is a shitty actor and he looks like a dweeb, so he can't perform
|the nuances of the character or look/sound threatening. So that
|part doesn't really work as well. But you still wonder if he is
|gonna get shot. And to be fair, Tarantino also writes a follow
|up scene where Jules point Jimmie is a friend and it makes sense
|that he is pissed... and that even though he allowed him to vent,
|they aren't going anywhere no matter what... which puts him back
|in charge.
|u/kafelta - 1 month
|
|Yeah, but it's like every single movie.
|u/Good-Beginning-6524 - 1 month
|
|Yes! To this day I still feel the suspicios
|u/Kotleba - 1 month
|
|My favorite instance of this is the random scene in Taxi Driver where
|Marty inserts himself as a cameo to drop a bunch of N bombs
|u/AndrewH73333 - 1 month
|
|Realistic writing will do that to you.
|u/krunkpanda - 1 month
|
|That’s 50/50 with king.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|try reading live and let die. holy shit that would make QT blush.
|u/5N0X5X0n6r - 1 month
|
|Allegedly the feud wasn't about him adding anything racist to the
|Crimson Tide script but it was about how much he puts the n-word in his
|own scripts. If you search online it keeps pointing back to June 1995
|issue of Premiere magazine
|u/RespondNo5759 - 1 month
|
|Wait? Tarantino being racist in the script? Mild_shock.gif
|u/pi247 - 1 month
|
|I’m a black dude who loves Tarantino movies but I always assumed he was
|a talented racist. Way too much fascination with that word lol
|u/PM_SexDream_OrDogPix - 1 month
|
|Always thought that word (or any slur) reflects a culture or a time
|period QT wants to convey. There's evilness to the character on top of
|the loaded word, making some nuanced hatred. Who cares? It's still
|racist. He killed Hitler in his own universe because it's his
|creation. QT can do what he wants in his universe, so remember - QT
|chooses for it to be racist.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|i think QT just really likes the word. He is bringing it back or
|something. or just doing it because it gets people in seats?
|u/Nadaesque - 1 month
|
|*Jackie Brown* "Look, I hate to be the kinda N does a N a favor, then,
|BAM!, hits a N up for a favor in return, but I'm afraid I *gots* to be
|that kinda N." That really maxed out the amount of NPS (Ns Per
|Sentence) for me. It's the ... sheer density of it.
|u/Fidel_Hashtro - 1 month
|
|He probably fucking did, dude loves the fucking N word and shit
|u/clutchutch - 1 month
|
|Tarantino adding racist dialogue to something? Now that’s the first time
|I’ve ever heard that claim before
|u/BeefistPrime - 1 month
|
|I always thought the random race tension comes out of left field and has
|no in-story justification whatsoever. It's one of the few flaws in an
|otherwise great film. There's absolutely no need for racial tension -
|the story would be exactly the same if the races were reversed. There's
|plenty of drama created by the situation they're in, with two men acting
|in good-faith with a different decision process in an extremely complex
|and difficult situation. This is not a story about Denzel overcoming
|systemic racism in the navy, and the captain's thought process and
|actions are completely justifiable without any sort of racist
|motivation. It's tacked on, stupid, distracting, and detracts from the
|movie.
|u/reasonablejim2000 - 1 month
|
|Yep. Always thought it was a weird clumsy interaction that never made
|sense no matter what way you interpret it. Never knew about tarantinos
|hand in it until now.
|u/Statalyzer - 1 month
|
|> There's absolutely no need for racial tension - the story would be
|exactly the same if the races were reversed. There's plenty of drama
|created by the situation they're in, with two men acting in good-faith
|with a different decision process in an extremely complex and
|difficult situation Exactly. Also, we're already meant to see Denzel
|as more in the right, and Gene as both more in the wrong and more of
|an asshole about it - but in a way where you still understand his
|point of view and why he believes he's doing the right thing. Having
|him make thinly-veiled racial remarks out of nowhere made him too much
|of a cartoony villain. With that said, writing a line into a script
|such that character makes a racially-charged insult doesn't make the
|writer prejudiced. Maybe it was even an attempt to be the opposite,
|like thinking this guy was already more wrong and more of a jerk so
|having him make the comment shows that it was the wrong comment, that
|racist remarks are bad, or that racism can be pervasive and come
|across seemingly out of nowhere from unusual places and not just from
|some openly-racist KKK member. If so, I don't think that came across
|well in the film. And having the actor say "Hang on, we don't need
|this in there" should have been a hint to that.
|u/Bobby_S2702 - 1 month
|
|The two hallmarks of a Tarantino picture: excessive racist slurs and
|unnecessary foot stuff.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|and comics dont forget comics
|u/Gullible_Swordfish75 - 1 month
|
|Tarantino is one of my favorite directors but the more I hear about him
|from other actors and coworkers , the more I see how much of an asshole
|he is ..
|u/WolfofOldNorth - 1 month
|
|An asshole, his 2nd favorite body part. First are feet.
|u/jabadabadouu - 1 month
|
|Hes an asshole/ hes and autistic dude that loves movies and they must
|be made like he imagines them and no one will stop him in his path,
|nor will he shy away from hurting other peoples feelings by telling
|them what he thinks and wants
|u/Voting101 - 1 month
|
|He is also a pedophile.
|https://youtu.be/xT_4Hl_G9Co?si=xEvAE9CxORrtQCJS
|u/Speedhabit - 1 month
|
|He says the n word a lot in pulp fiction
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|and Django, and true romance
|u/Speedhabit - 1 month
|
|I don’t need you to tell me how good my fucking coffee is, I buy it
|u/Kotleba - 1 month
|
|I'll always find Tarantino a bit weird for this no matter how much
|Samuel L Jackson tells me it's okay.
|u/ruby651 - 1 month
|
|I remember reading a Premiere magazine article on the making of this
|movie. The reporter, who was on-set, was there the first day that
|Tarantino was there as well. The blow-up Washington had with him wasn’t
|over any racism in that movie, but what Washington viewed as the racism
|in all his other movies, specifically the use of the “n” word which
|Denzel isn’t a fan of. The reporter said Tarantino, pretty well taken
|aback, quickly left the set.
|u/IAmHaskINs - 1 month
|
|They picked him for 'punch ups'? What a bizarre pick for the setting of
|the movie, and for little dialogue.
|u/Captain_Peelz - 1 month
|
|Wait until he learns about Django
|u/AndarianDequer - 1 month
|
|I've watched this movie a dozen times and I never picked up any racist
|undertones. I thought the conversation about the stallions gives us a
|little more depth to the characters interests and backgrounds, and at
|the same time, gives them something that they can agree to disagree on.
|Shows they are both intelligent and still at odds.
|u/deaconxblues - 1 month
|
|That’s sweet of you
|u/edgiepower - 1 month
|
|I mean he is known for casting himself as characters that get to say the
|N word...
|u/YoshiTheDog420 - 1 month
|
|I don’t know. If QT added the racism then he made it more realistic. The
|Military, especially the Navy is pretty racist. Gene Hackmans character
|always made sense to me. I have met fuckhead officers like him plenty of
|times.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|and Gene is such an ass in person it works doubly.
|u/pittiedaddy - 1 month
|
|Edited post: Since everyone thinks "desegregation" in 1946 meant
|magically blacks were welcome with open fucking arms in the military,
|you must also think that they got all the same rights and privileges
|when slavery was abolished. And they were able to get jobs, bank loans,
|buy houses, and drink water from the same water fountain.
|"Desegregation" was on fucking paper and meant very little to the
|overall execution. Read some fucking history. We had race riots on
|ships in the 70's.
|[https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1979/october/integration-nav
|y-1941-1978](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1979/october/int
|egration-navy-1941-1978)
|u/CharonsLittleHelper - 1 month
|
|Your years are SUPER off. The US navy was desegregated in February
|1946. By 1972 black officers had commanded ships during Vietnam. And
|even before that in 1942 they were allowed to enlist in the general
|service rather than just as messmen.
|u/boricimo - 1 month
|
|NO! There were obviously no black people in the Navy until 1999.
|u/zerocoolforschool - 1 month
|
|This can’t be true because I saw the historical documentary Under
|Siege and there was clearly black sailors on the Missouri!
|u/boricimo - 1 month
|
|They weren’t there by choice. Slavery in the Navy wasn’t
|abolished until 1997. It was going to be 1991, but Seagal
|forced them to continue for another 6 years to save costs on
|filming.
|u/pittiedaddy - 1 month
|
|Cool. Being "allowed to enlist" has fuck-all to do with how they
|were actually treated. We want to talk movies and Navy racism? Watch
|Men of Honor. The Navy was desegregated at that time too. It didn't
|stop them from trying to drown Carl to get him to drop out.
|u/curlytoesgoblin - 1 month
|
|where the fuck did you pull 1972 from
|u/Hunithunit - 1 month
|
|Isn’t there more than one instance of veiled racism in this movie? I
|thought it was intentional given their confrontation.
|u/howitzeral - 1 month
|
|I liked the Silver Surfer dialog. I thought it showed how Denzel’s
|character develops bonds with his subordinates. I’m not a comic book
|fan though so don’t know if that came off badly for other reasons.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|Jack Kirby was the GOAT fuck Stan. Excelsior!
|u/CogswellCogs - 1 month
|
|>A few years later, Washington apologized to Tarantino saying he "buried
|that hatchet".
|u/Disgruntled_Oldguy - 1 month
|
|The horses dialogue ruins the movie because the situation  is morally
|ambiguous up until that point. Both men are just doing their duty as
|they see it. Making the cap. a racist clearly puts Denzel in the right.
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|also acording to Navy rules (this was brought up by many Sailors in
|other threads) Denzel was 100% right and Hackman was 100% wrong. In
|RL this would have ended right then and there when Denzel took
|command.
|u/Rocky_Vigoda - 1 month
|
|Tarantino got famous for reviving a racist genre. Blaxploitation films
|were considered racist by the 80s. You Americans really love saying the
|n-word.
|u/ZelezopecnikovKoren - 1 month
|
|oh so its Quentin Tarantino who doesnt know the Lipizzaner horses are
|named after Lipica in present-day Slovenia the horses are neither
|Portuguese nor Spanish; theyre Slovene and they are a big flex of ours
|u/n0pat - 1 month
|
|Wait until you guys watch Grand Torino. It’ll blow your minds…
|u/bolanrox - 1 month
|
|Did you know as a favor to Kevin Smith, QT wrote all of Hooper X's
|dialog as well as Randall's Grandmother's stories?
|u/throwaway-dysphoria - 1 month
|
|While I like some of his films, QT seems like an asshole. He claims that
|George Clooney isn’t a movie star because he hasn’t had a recent hit as
|a lead actor. Sounds very pretentious, exactly what I can’t stand about
|Hollywood. https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/13/entertainment/george-clooney-
|quentin-tarantino-movie-star/index.html
|u/Rc72 - 1 month
|
|Funny thing is, the wiki's source for asserting that Washington
|subsequently "buried that hatchet" is [an
|interview](https://www.gq.com/story/denzel-washington-interview-gq-
|october-2012) with Washington while his daughter was filming "Django
|Unchained" and he was himself filming with [Mark
|Wahlberg](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/20/mark-wahlberg-
|racism-pardon). Hard to call out Tarantino for his racist dialogue when
|your own daughter is working with him in a movie which uses the "n-word"
|in every second sentence, and you're yourself working with somebody with
|an actual record of hate crime... EDIT: Before people downvote me,
|check the links. Denzel himself refers in the interview to his oldest
|daughter working with Tarantino on Django Unchained. His oldest daughter
|is producer Katia Washington and she's indeed credited as production
|assistant in Django Unchained...
|u/howsthoughtworkingou - 1 month
|
|Why is everyone on Reddit constantly trying to gotcha. This isn't a
|good gotcha. Maybe Denzel felt his daughter could make her own
|decisions. Maybe he felt racist dialogue belonged in Django but was
|offensively shoehorned into Crimson Tide. Maybe he thought Wahlberg
|had changed but that Tarantino was still racist. Who fucking knows lol
|but there are a million different possibilities that don't paint
|Denzel as a hypocrite. Stop trying so desperately to look clever all
|the time.
|u/number90901 - 1 month
|
|Also you don’t have to like or get along with your co-workers, he
|can do a movie with Wahlberg and not approve of the guy. Hell he
|could do another movie with QT and it wouldn’t necessarily mean they
|were best of friends.
|u/Ksumatt - 1 month
|
|I read this thinking “Kerry Washington is Denzel Washington’s
|daughter”?
|u/Kingbuji - 1 month
|
|People on Reddit need learn what logical fallacies are because this
|stupid shit is tiring.
|u/workatwork1000 - 1 month
|
|(Washingtons belief that)
|u/cardboardunderwear - 1 month
|
|Film is a director's medium. Also Tarantino: "I'm paying you a lot of
|money to say what's on the page". Or words to that effect iirc. Noting
|that Tarantino was not the director of Crimson Tide, but his point still
|stands.
|u/wakandan_boi - 1 month
|
|I dislike his movies because I find them racially charged
|u/Acidsparx - 1 month
|
|I always felt Tarantino only made movies so he could drop as many
|n-bombs as he could get away with. 
|u/MrMersh - 1 month
|
|“I’m going to make this masterpiece movie so I can have characters say
|the N word” yeah that really makes sense
|u/jonesELEVEN11 - 1 month
|
|damn people really do love ‘quick trip’, there are a lot more comments
|they need to be down voting at that matter
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